[Amele]

well.

if you put a sam/war in outdated nq (walmart sam) vs. a heavily equipped sam/mnk or the sam/mnk was 2-3 levels ahead of the sam/war in (what I can only assume is the pre 30 level range, or there would be *no* question which subjob would win)
say, the dunes. then yeah, I could see sam/mnk outparsing sam/war.

it's been said elsewhere, but it bears repeating.

the dunes do not count when talking about what subjobs are viable. (since esp. in dunes 'no subjob' is viable.) and you could even make a case that qufim doesn't particularly count, since most subjobs don't give a really relevant ability until level 15+

[raidenn]

I guess soloing would be good if you're sam/mnk in the high levels. I sure hate boosting every 8 seconds just to make that normal hit. Ive never seen someone outparsing sam/thf yet though.
But hey, experiment and see if sam/mnk is acceptible to parties. Tell us how long it takes you to get a party. Always wanted to see how other subjobs work.

[Malacite]

if you put a sam/war in outdated nq (walmart sam) vs. a heavily equipped sam/mnk or the sam/mnk was 2-3 levels ahead of the sam/war in (what I can only assume is the pre 30 level range, or there would be *no* question which subjob would win)
say, the dunes. then yeah, I could see sam/mnk outparsing sam/war.

That's not the issue. Of course gear/skill is a factor, but I meant strictly in terms of what job abilites /WAR should not and can not lose to /MNK by 30+, even in the hands of a retarded monkey.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Malacite

That's not the issue. Of course gear/skill is a factor, but I meant strictly in terms of what job abilites /WAR should not and can not lose to /MNK by 30+, even in the hands of a retarded monkey.

yeah, it wasn't until I noticed the poster lists sam20 as his job that the answer clicked into place. - and if the retarded monkey was afraid to use berserk, that would probably answer a big part of the question too. (5-9.5% damage boost from DA is overcomeable by gear gap).

Ive never seen someone outparsing sam/thf yet though.

I want to see the parse where any (non-amano) sam/thf outparsed sam/war or sam/rng in comparable gear. in other words: POITD.

[Malacite]

No one's going to touch SAM/THF in terms of raw WS damage, but the DoT of SAM/WAR or SAM/RNG with a Soboro is very scary.

[raidenn]

I wish I can get that weapon.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Malacite

No one's going to touch SAM/THF in terms of raw WS damage, but the DoT of SAM/WAR or SAM/RNG with a Soboro is very scary.

that's just it. SAM/THF doesn't even win in WSdot - only in per hit WS damage, which is why I want to see a parse before I'll believe a claim that sam/thf 'can't be touched' ws or otherwise. (yeah, I realize SAM/THF is gonna be able to hit higher 'record' gekkos, except for epeen and certain specific situations, that doesn't count for much.)

{warning: math and theory}

I don't think anyone is willing to argue sam/thf will win on dot. so we'll concede that to the sam/war right away.

at standard (0% haste) cadence; assuming six hit store tp setup, and (we'll be generous) perfect accuracy, a samurai will gain 100TP in exactly 45 seconds (with 90% accuracy this will be 'an average' of 50 seconds.) - this means that a sam/thf will only be firing one weaponskill (SA WS) a minute, and will have one throwaway weaponskill every 2.5 minutes (with fully merited haste). the sam/war will throw 20% more weaponskills over time, and all weaponskills will be at an average of 15%+10 higher attack than sam/thf (excluding warcry here.)

at hasso cadence (10% haste) again, six hit store tp; a samurai will gain 100TP in 40.9 seconds ('average' of ~45 seconds with 90% accuracy) this means a sam/thf will still be firing only weaponskill (SA WS) a minute, and will *still* have one throwaway weaponskill every 2.5 minutes. sam/war will throw 33% more weaponskills again at 15%+10 higher attack (excluding warcry)

at 65% haste (hasso + 25% gear + 15% haste spell + 15% march) again, six hit store tp; a samurai will gain 100TP in 27.3 seconds (~30 seconds 'average' @90% accuracy) - now a sam/thf can throw a weaponskill every 30 seconds (one throwaway one with SA) but the sam/war will *still* be throwing 20% more weaponskills, and again, with +15% higher attack (excluding warcry).

SA will give a +1.0 PDIF change, which will generally be between 25% and 100% extra damage. assuming that you can get your attack to at least 400, this boost will be approximately 60% in most exp situations.

assuming WS by thief without SA as baseline of '1'. (this is major simplification but easy math is much simpler to follow and the simplifications are all in the favor of sam/thf here anyway).

I have added an additional +9% damage to the sam/war to represent the effect of double attack in weaponskills (fires 10% of the time for 90% accuracy for 'double damage') 1.09 * 1.15 = 1.25

haste 0 sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .032
haste 0 sam/war: 1.25/50 + 1.25 / 150 = .033
-> sam/war wins on weaponskills. (although not by much)

hasso haste sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .032
hasso haste sam/war 1.25/45 + 1.25/150 = .036
-> sam/war wins bigger on weaponskills.

65% haste sam/thf: 1.6 / 60 + 1 / 60 + 1 / 150 = .042
65% haste sam/war 1.25 / 30 + 1.25 / 150 = .050
-> sam/war wins *even bigger* on weaponskills.

{end of math and theory}

if you're going for damage: sam/war is better than sam/thf for *almost* all situations.

if you need to assist a tank in hate control - sam/thf is gonna be better than sam/war.

- I didn't include soboro intentionally. it's a *fantastic weapon* (I love mine) but it has little bearing on whether or not war or thf is the better subjob (it does, however, totally change the way sam/rng plays).