SAM- parrying tank???!!!

[Feba]

This is getting off topic.


back on the point: "Can a SAM with maxed Parrying skill make a decent tank?"

[WishMaster3K]

Ya Rly

NO WAAAAAI!!!!!!!

I'm sure that maybe they can tank about as decent as a WAR can tank, but only if they parry a LOT to ofset loss of things like Voke, Defender, or Shadows, depending on t he sub.

A NIN friend of mine mentioned that it's possible that parry goes off more often with 2h Weapon, specifically GK.

But with the amount of Damage reduction gear, and the gear swapping potential (IE, using a weaker Byrnie instead of Hauby, because Hauby has -Eva), SAM can make an excellently survivable Trick Partner.

Main tanking? I'm not sure. I know that with my gear, IT gobs hit me in the 30s as 30PLD. SAMs, conversely, take 70ish.

End game, they don't wear such light armor, but mobs hit much harder.

So it's feasable that SAM tanking is only truly applicable in Valk, Qufim and the early levels of CN (after Meditate, but before the 40s, when game dynamics change.)

[Feba]

NIN DRG and SAM....to me, it seems like RoTZ jobs were made to be trick partners, DRG especially shows they wanted us to mess around with hate...


SMN was supposed to be the overpowered, "lol i'm already 75 and uber watch me own shit" job, but they never really made it powerful enough to warrant the MP cost. And with how easy it is to access SMN now, they can't

Double Post Edited:
And yes, I realize the cap wasn't 75 when ROTZ was released.

[Nodachi]

SAM cannot tank.

Incase someone are like "Yeah well what if..." I'll say it again.

SAM cannot tank.

[WishMaster3K]

Come o n, Nodachi ^^ I respect you enough t o know you're smarter than that.

But hey, people also said RDM can't tank, but look

*note I will continue to link to that thread until I quit RDM >.>

But to be blunt, no, SAM can't tank. Although they can mitigate a few seconds worth of damage, which is more than a lot of melee can do. I've seen NINs gear themselves up a certain way and straight tank Fafnir a nd Nidhogg, taking only double-digit damage.

Any job with the unber l33t sauce gear can do things to a certain degree (for instance, SAM that might use WS gear for WS accuracy and Damage Reduction gear otherwise.)

The only thing, however, a SAM could really utilize, would be Defending and Jelly rings, namely because the Darksteel Gear is crap sauce. There is this DRG/SAM gear that I've heard about but never seen, and it reduces damage also, but it's mostly trash >.>

While I'm inclined to be progressive about this, Nodachi's blunt way of putting i t seems to be right (for now).

[Lmnop]

Wishmaster, while your magery is unsurpassed, your take on warrior tanking is making me cringe. When War/mnk is, IMO, better than pld at generating hate all the way to 37 as well as terrific at taking low amounts of damage while increasing the output of the whole party and dealing barely less damage than the dedicated melees, I'd say it's a pretty potent tank.

My experience with melees tanking (note, this is with low levels. Nothing over 40):
Right up to 30, my thf would do SA early on and i'd equip swap a max evasion+ set and evasion-tank the mob quite frequently. While Thf was incredibly efficient at avoiding damage, I suppose their inability to hold hate and thus main tank makes them technically the worst.

Samurai, I always carried a full defense swap and I tanked a few mobs here-and-there as tanks D/Ced or were afk too long and we'd go ahead and kill while we waited, whatever. In this time, I noticed that I didn't parry enough despite my capped skill, and that I had next to no hate-holding abilities. I felt like I war/nin as far as hate holding goes, but w/out any of the damage negation (read: suck).

While I still haven't leveled Dark Knight or Dragoon past 10, I know my brother main-tanked through the dunes as Drk and my friend has tanked qufim and kazham quite flawlessly as Drg. I think both of their capacity to tank ends at 30 or so. Basically, they have good damage to supply ok hate, but 0 damage negation means they're unavoidably inferior.

Mnk was a tank machine. I tanked at least one of every type of mob from the moment I started partying all the way to 37 (crabs, crabs again, pugils, mandies, gobs (furriers), beetles, crawlers). I never thought Mnks were meant to be main tanks, but if you're going to make a DD into a tank, you should be at least as competent as a Mnk. Monk's natural stats make them very survivable. Add in decent armor (barely under a war/pld which isn't much at these levels), guard, and counter, and it's easy to see why they solo so well for a DD. Their damage levels are through the roof (my monk was never ever ever outparsed. Not even once. And I'm not super uber.) and they have so many JAs to spam for hate that it's just obscene. Mnk was sooooo good that, in addition to the tank gear all my melees carry with them, I found myself volunteering to tank for parties and occcasionally eating defense food.

Bottom Line:
If you're not tanking as good as a monk, you'll never come close to a pally or a ninjar.

[WishMaster3K]

;.; What have I said to offend the uber number cruncher parse master Alphabet Man!?!?

I think you're refering to #2 on this thread? I apoligize. From my take on tanking, we can always have jobs that do damage, but what makes PLD and NIN the tank machines they are end-game are the abilities of damage mitigation (in my view).

NINs avoid damage, PLDs take less than everyone else (and heal for additional).

So while tanking as a WAR/MNK or a MNK or any other melee can work, the act of simply out damaging to hold the mobs attention is very dangerous (to me, at least).

SAM can generate great hate with WS after WS after WS. But even with capped parrying (as many SAMs posted), it didn't proc enough to mitigate damage efficiently enough.

So sorry! I forgot how big of an advocate you are of WAR/MNK tanking,

For SAM, what does this mean?

-Zanshin is like a native Double Attack of sorts
-Third Eye can dodge damn near anything now (even all 3 hits of Goblin Rush)
-SAM is in the heavy-armor category (right below WAR/PLD)
-Meditate

But as PLDs know with Shield AND Parry, just having that alone doesn't help. Ok, good points. SAM can't tank (effectively, or even half decent) unless there are game changes to their fundamental mechanics (not happening since SAM isn't broken or gimp in any way).

Oh, ty, AlphabetMan, I try my best at MageMastery ;.; !!!!!

Double Post Edited:
Edit:

Yes, I changed your custom title >:3

[Lmnop]

even Dual Wars have successfully tanked by being able to trade off damage and such.

I'm sure that maybe they can tank about as decent as a WAR can tank

These were the statements I was referring to. Sam will never compare to War in tanking.

If Pld and Nin are both tanking 10s, then War is a tanking 6 unless the party is doing what it can to facilitate them, in which case it shoots to 10. Monk is stuck at 5 or so forever, and samurai is a 2. Thus I say, if it can't compete with a monk, it'll never compete with real tanks.

Re:Alphabet Man-
shoot, call me whatever you want. What's in a name? I have no qualms with telling people that my in-game name is Repion, but I use Lmnop because I don't think it's important enough to care about.

[Itatchi]

Wait, you mean that's not Blanka?

No, its Rico. Hes got the bomb collar on in the picture, incase he leaves the designated area in Kislev, his head goes boom. Its from Xenogears. So is mine.

Id!!

With the right party setup, merits, and gear, Sam can tank, so there

But I never really wanted to be tank, I wanted to be DD, so there. I'm still waiting for that update for samurai where our TP abilities are enhanced. Like we do a WS and it reduces some of the Mob's TP /drool

Hows Relic GKT comin Nodachi?


Also...
-Zanshin is like a native Double Attack of sorts

Uhm, no. Once you hit 60, its simply a job trait that has a chance of procing after you miss a hit. If you swing, miss, you have a small chance to immediately swing again. If you hit, it will not go off again. You in no way have Double Attack.

-Third Eye can dodge damn near anything now (even all 3 hits of Goblin Rush)

Thats because its a physical TP move. Third eye will dodge the next attack, whether its one swing, or certain types of tp moves.

[Nodachi]

So so, no coins this week lol. About halfway done on coins, still need a little luck in beating Animated Tachi. Thanks for asking though -

[samarium]

SAM was never meant to be a tank, huh?

Tell that to my static's Samurai.

While you're at it, tell him to take off his GKT merits and stop using Soboro Sukehiro, the jerk.

He routinely pulls hate off the tank, past the point where Provoke can even pull it off him, and because SAM WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE A TANK (thanks again for that giga-sized-bright-red-underlined-font BULLCRAP ), he usually winds up dying at least once a party.

But that's okay.

-sam

P.S. If samurai was never meant to be a tank, explain why half of its AF is loaded down with +Enmity.

[Lmnop]

For being a good trick buddy. Thanks for bringing a snide attitude into the conversation.

Dying once/party via pulling hate doesn't mean he'd make a good tank. Try tanking for a DRK with souleater up. That doesn't make them a tank. A Monk's hate levels are through the roof, but that doesn't make them tanks.

A good DD needs to know when to hold back. If a SAM's doing incredible damage, he gets incredible hate. If he's getting cure-bombed, the Healer's getting incredible hate. Let's have a discussion on WHM tanking, shall we?

[samarium]

For being a good trick buddy. Thanks for bringing a snide attitude into the conversation.

Dying once/party via pulling hate doesn't mean he'd make a good tank. Try tanking for a DRK with souleater up. That doesn't make them a tank. A Monk's hate levels are through the roof, but that doesn't make them tanks.

A good DD needs to know when to hold back. If a SAM's doing incredible damage, he gets incredible hate. If he's getting cure-bombed, the Healer's getting incredible hate. Let's have a discussion on WHM tanking, shall we?

* <- the joke

O <- your head

I'm joking around. It's a matter of pride that my buddy can pull hate like that, he loves making tanks sweat.

As for the +enmity comment, It's just a matter of interest that SE would make a public statement (in big, flaming red letters ) that SAM is not meant to be a tank but then give them +enmity (like war and pld, the other original tank jobs).

Reeeelllaaaxxxxx!

-sam

[Feba]

P.S. If samurai was never meant to be a tank, explain why half of its AF is loaded down with +Enmity.

How should I know? I'm not an S.E. Dev.


If you read the post, I wouldn't have to make this part big too:


The Square-Enix Development team said this at Fan Fest


Seriously, I don't know what runs through SE's head, but they said themselves that SAM was NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, WILL NEVER BE, thought of as a tanking class.


If you read what I posted above, personally, I think they intended for NIN SAM and DRG to mess with Hate, perticularly as Trick partners.

[samarium]

How should I know? I'm not an S.E. Dev.


If you read the post, I wouldn't have to make this part big too:


The Square-Enix Development team said this at Fan Fest


Seriously, I don't know what runs through SE's head, but they said themselves that SAM was NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE, WILL NEVER BE, thought of as a tanking class.


If you read what I posted above, personally, I think they intended for NIN SAM and DRG to mess with Hate, perticularly as Trick partners.

I DID read the damned post.

You shouting at me in giant ostentatious red letters certainly isn't making me feel put in my place.

Perhaps you should read MY post - SE can shout about SAM not being meant to tank all they want, but if they then proceed to dump enmity on their AF I kind of lose my belief.

I do realize they're a DD class - high attack, low defense, which certainly precludes them tanking. The point I'm trying to make here is that big red letters are pointless and whiny, more so when all you can do is quote the same thing again and again in the same goddamn font.

The argument that the +Enmity is there for SATA is baseless as well. If you have to do SATA more than once per fight to keep your tank going during exp, something's wrong; tanking enmity is cumulative. I don't know how it works with HNM, but it seems to me that they're either kited around or forbidden to turn around in the first place (spike flail anyone?)

Now that we've gotten that clear. Samurai isn't a tank job. It doesn't have the defense to do it. I don't give a flying damn what SE said about it; it flat out ISN'T.

I would, however, LOVE to know why the +Enmity is there - SATA happens once a fight before anybody has to steal hate from anybody, Samurai are not meant to tank, and yet the AF with +Enmity is there. Why insert armor that samurai would avoid in favor of other things?

-sam