[Susurrus]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

Being able to sc with others is even more fun!

Because we know that happens so often in parties with any job.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Susurrus

Because we know that happens so often in parties with any job.

The point I was making was that a melee rdm will want to sc so they will pay more attention to who's ws'ing than their casting duties.

[Nuriko]

Then again, SC matter to mages because we can MB on them ... the meleeburn attitude of 'use it or lose it' (or eat amnesia at least) is widespread among the melee, though.

[Dyft]

Just a short 2 item post for me before I head off to bed. First, any time I ever meleed on my RDM, I hit the auto attack and spells always came first. The first thing I did was turn off my dmg, I don't need to see how hard I'm hitting the mob or how often, my melee was just there to get an extra couple swings in on a mob. That was it. If I want big numbers I can play a Drk/Thf or a Blm. If I want DoT theres jobs for that too.. monk comes to mind as far as melee goes.

I have been playing MMOs since eq1 went beta. Since 1999 I have been playing hybrid melee casters. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back or anything because I can think of a lot more productive things then 9 years playing computer games, arguably too much. I say that only to state my background as a MMO player. With that being said I do enjoy playing a Rdm/Nin with friends that let me do my thing. My thing being swing my swords while I cast. I will skillchain if i notice one going off and have the TP but don't really strive to make them. After all, I'm only expected to cast right?

I think there are 2 problems in FFXI when it pertains to this to be honest. The first is eliteism. I was playing Rdm while my roommate was playing Drg. The only way he could get a party is if I told partys I wouldent join without him. I would get turned down some times because "there are better dds then a drg". I have never cared about killing a mob 10 seconds faster or moving to a new camp to get 15 xp more a kill. I'd rather play my character. I play MMOs to get away from real life. I want to be this person *I* invision, and its never the same as someone elses vision. In most games I've played I've almost always played the road less traveled. Sometimes I almost think its become a game to me to see how well I can succeede at things that everyone else said I would fail at because it wasent the general concencus on how it was supposed to be played. I have a Melee warden in eq2. First off a warden is a healer. Infact, its one of the best healers. Here it would be mostly like a Rdm/Whm. But heres where things differ. Sure I can cast the exact same heal as a healer warden. But theres is going to heal for 100ish more hp per shot. Then why do I do it you ask. Simple the way I'm set up when I hit the enemy with my weapon theres a 35% chance I cast curaga II. Nuff said. At the end of the day, my melee warden can solo an IT where a non melee warden gets his ass kicked by a DC(tried to use FFXI terms about it for ease of understanding, this is not a direct translation). Please dont get me wrong, I dont really care how effective I am at soloing. I just enjoy playing the job MY way. If I suck at it, you can kick me from the party ask me to leave blacklist me and never invite me again. Hell post on all the forums that I'm the crappiest player thats ever changed to the job. But let me play it MY way. Dont tell me to change sub jobs... dont tell me to sit my ass in the corner. Just let me do my thing.

On the reverse side of the coin, when I'm a party leader..... almost every day I play actually. I'll invite a whm/mnk. When I invite him, I ask him if he can take care of the main heal duties. If he says yes, I'll invite him. If he cant perform the duties of the main healer then I'll ask him to leave once I find a replacement. (BTW I actually partied with a Whm/Mnk the other day, he was our main healer, he did an outstanding job, not a single member died all night and we pulled in over 14k xp in about 4 hours roughly (think i went through about 8 or 9 sushis (regular not +1) Was he the best Whm I've ever partied with? absolutely not. Was he the worst Whm I've ever partied with? HELL NO, I would actually go as far to say that he might have been around the 75th percentile. But at the end of the night when the party disbanded, he sent me a tell thanking me for making this the most enjoyable night he has had on his whm. Thats what made me feel good. Not the fact that i gained almost 3 levels, but the fact that everyone had a good time. Why was he subbing mnk you ask? I have no clue, what so ever. He meleed tho, but I'm pretty sure hes from my school of thought. Its called auto attack for a reason.. Hit it and let it go. If he got under 50% mana he rested when he could during fights and between fights of course.

The 2nd thing I wanted to mention was how upset I am at FFXI at the moment. Not anything major just peeved. When WoTG came out, I like many others raced off to unlock the new jobs. I dident really care about Sch.. but Dnc... now thats my forte... remember me mentioning I was a melee healer in other games . Well anyhow, back to topic. That was my only day I've ever spent in the past. I ended up dieing and getting teleported back to the future or using a warp scroll or something... i dont remember. What i do remember is that I never did come BACK to the future through a maw. So today being a 58 Blu I decide that I want to go see what this campaign stuff is all about. So I look up how to get to the past and i see the thing talking about the home maw. Well i distinctly remember having to get my LS to escort me through garlage citadel to take me to the area in sauroman that you can only get to through there, that you have to open bannishing gates to get through. Well guess what. I couldent pay people 10k a head to come open the gate with me. So while I was shouting and sending tells offering people in the zone the reward and what not my sneak wore off.. well i dident notice this until i was half dead as i was in tell hell trying to get the gate opened. Now this is of course 100% my fault. What irks me is that they knowingly made it so that 33% of the people that went to the past would end up as that as their home maw. To me thats complete and utter BS. A level 1 char could go back to the past by themselves if they were careful and had the right expendables just as long as they wernt one of the unlucky souls like me who got stuck with sauromon as their home maw. *I* a level 58 Blu cant get back to the past trying to bribe people to take 10 minutes to help me open a door. That is why I say its utter BS.

I do sincerely apolijise for the rant about the past. My honest hopes are maybe theres a way to make it like i never went to the past and go just once through another maw.. i dont care where it spits me out. NOW i know i need to unlock maws and how they work... the day the expantion came out.. i just wanted to change jobs to melee healer. I know that wont be the case with FFXI but theres always hope right.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I just wish I could play Dyft, not play FFXI's vision of Dyft. If I want to poke him in the ass with a dagger for 3 dmg while im refreshing the whm, whats the harm? and please dont give me that crap about feeding tp to mobs... its horse crap. 2 reasons, Blu/Nin Bludgeon = 40%tp to the mob if my understanding is correct.... 10% tp per hit on a multi hit blue mage spell and /nin adding 1 hit to any multi hit physical blue mage spell. which would be 3+1*10 = tp%, where my little pokes and prods are giving maybe 7 or 8%... and if the enemy as weapon skills that are that devistating then get a Blu and have them Head Butt... if they are worth a damn they will keep at least some of them from going off. And if that dosent work, I'll just fight something else. You got 20932309 different things you can fight, theres nothing telling you, you have to kill the ones that spam doomga.

Sorry again for the rant that I suppose this has turned into. My main focus was to say that I think people are taking melee rdm the wrong way... all i want to do is cast my en spell sub nin and swings some swords while im casting. whats wrong with that?

P.S. holy crap... sorry for this turning into an essay .... damn.....
______________________________
By the way, for a living I'm an Interoperability *ANALYST* / *LOGISTICIAN* (can you tell? )

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Dyft

I think there are 2 problems in FFXI when it pertains to this to be honest. The first is eliteism. I was playing Rdm while my roommate was playing Drg. The only way he could get a party is if I told partys I wouldent join without him. I would get turned down some times because "there are better dds then a drg".

I don't call that elitism, I call it stupidity. Also, the tide has greatly changed for drgs. My husband recently leveled his drg to 75 extremely quickly because the attitude has changed so greatly. When he seeks for a merit party now, he gets invites very quickly. I've been playing MMO's a long time and there hasn't been one yet that hasn't had a job/class that people scoff at. It's just the way of the world.

Originally Posted by Dyft

I want to be this person *I* invision, and its never the same as someone elses vision.

And it never will be. The thing about playing MMO's is that you play with other real live people that have opinions and state them. Just like real life, we all don't get along and there's always a majority and a minority.

Originally Posted by Dyft

In most games I've played I've almost always played the road less traveled. Sometimes I almost think its become a game to me to see how well I can succeede at things that everyone else said I would fail at because it wasent the general concencus on how it was supposed to be played.

If you've done this often, then why are you so irritated with people in FFXI? No matter what MMO you play, the majority of people always have opinions on how to do things the best and most efficient way. I've been around for quite some time and have been gaming online for a very long time. It's always been like this in MMO's, people want to maximize their time. If your innovative characters have bucked the system, as you've said, then you've gotten flack from people before. It should be nothing new to you in FFXI and, by now, shouldn't be a surprise or bother you so much. It's just the way of the MMO world.

Originally Posted by Dyft

I just enjoy playing the job MY way. If I suck at it, you can kick me from the party ask me to leave blacklist me and never invite me again. Hell post on all the forums that I'm the crappiest player thats ever changed to the job. But let me play it MY way. Dont tell me to change sub jobs... dont tell me to sit my ass in the corner. Just let me do my thing.

On the reverse side of the coin, when I'm a party leader.....

This is how I did it. When I was a melee rdm, I usually made my own parties. I ALWAYS told the people that were invited that I am a melee rdm and if they didn't agree with that I didn't mind if they said no to my invite. I was ALWAYS up front with people. On the other hand, when I didn't make my own parties I had 2 options. First one was that I could play the way the leader/party preferred me to. Second one was to inform the party leader/members that I was a melee rdm and that I would be melee'ing if they invited me. I would tell them that I would respect their decision if they asked me to leave but please respect mine and do not ask me to stay in the backline. Either way, the party knows up front what they are getting. I was also honest when they asked if I'd be able to keep up everything. I knew I might be late on refreshes or that I might miss a debuff dropping and I didn't lie and say "Oh yes I can keep it all going!" I told them the truth so there was no drama.

Just as I didn't want them to force me into doing something I didn't want to, it was not right for me to expect them to accept my way if they didn't want to.

Originally Posted by Dyft

Sorry again for the rant that I suppose this has turned into. My main focus was to say that I think people are taking melee rdm the wrong way... all i want to do is cast my en spell sub nin and swings some swords while im casting. whats wrong with that?

What's wrong with that to many people is the fact that the efficiency of the party suffers. They want to play the game to maximize their potential and garner as much exp as possible in the least amount of time. THAT IS FUN TO THEM.

It's all about accepting that people are different and may like to play the game in different ways. Even in offline games, some people like to use a guide to help get every piece of fun out of the game as they possibly can. Other people consider it "cheating" to do this because they feel you should find things out on your own even if you miss stuff. Who's right? Both. Because thats the way they each enjoy the game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with either.

[MrMageo]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Had a BRD that insisted on me not healing her past yellow because she wanted that reduced song casting time effect.

So I didn't.

She sure did die a lot. But hey, I didn't want to ruin her -song casting.

Rajas is going to give you more than that silly HP latent ring anyway.

Also, your 4th point is confusing since it shares the same title as point #1. At any rate when you come to a burn PT as a RDM, whether you're invited to melee or not, it remains expected of you that you perform the role of a RDM.

Just because I stop DDing as a COR and start pulling in some meritpo PT doesn't mean I stop buffing people, but just look at all the BRDs and CORs that forget that because they're "too busy" pulling.

Your function in PT might slightly change, but your defining role never does.

Oh I agree completely with all except for the Raja's/Fencer thing.

Just to hit on that quick the +5 or (4 taking into account resist rates). Is far superior to the possible +1 from Rajas, or the 2.5% hit rate (which isn't really needed when your riding 93-95% hit rate.) +5(or 4) DMG will do you better in the end.

In regards to defining your role. RDMs role is to be universal. It is not supposed to to be a one trick pony. We can refresh haste and cure anywhere on the battle field. Is a RDM who is tanking a HNM not defining the role because they aren't casting refresh on the WHM who may or may not be in the party?

Healing and being a never ending caster are just some of the tasks that fall into our role as a versatile job. Its much like SCH in a sense, that they can change on the fly. While they may not carry big buff cycles on everyone for a certain task, they always have the capacity to do so. While the may not lay down big cures every time someone goes yellow they still have the tools to do it. Even if they are nuking. But if they are asked to come nuke then that should be their primary focus, if someone hits the yellow it should be the responsibility of the dedicated healer to act first.

Splitting up the duties is what makes RDM a job to fill the hole that can not be filled by another BRD or COR. We can easily do 20% of total party damage (coincidentally that is roughly the same double minuet can offer.) We still have all the tools to heal the party. Splitting a haste cycle with the back line Mage keeps mp in your pocket, taking over Dia responsibilities and providing refresh keeps MP in theirs.

It isn't foregoing the definition of the job it is living it. You just have a different role to perform. If your carrying the majority of the casting your not swinging, and if your not swinging your not offseting the damage loss that you should be.

Most players give up because they feel it is too complex. But in reality it is pretty simple and not really any different than back lining. Instead of resting between casts your swinging at the mob.

On things that need enfeebling you hand off a few more things to the back line mage, or you take on more things, keeping the MP each of you spend as equal as possible. This MP conservation if you want to call it that, I prefer sharing, makes for very very smooth and rewarding parties. When I would slip my SH+1 on and dust off my Blau, I would go with the mindset that my MP pool and the back line mages were one. If they drop below a certain point, then that means I have as well. At that point I can just say hey, rest up for a minute ill cover you, burn the MP in my half the pool while they rest pop convert and start over. Usually without ever having to take eyes of the mob. Not many jobs have the functionality RDM does in different aspects of the party. To say one is not defining their job because they aren't casting every 2 seconds is pretty short sighted, and clearly shows your lack of skill in the RDM class. Being ready and able to take up a hybrid role at anytime defines the job. If your MH isn't boiling over with gearsets for anything imaginable, then your no better off then the RDM who just slipped into a SH and thought he could melee.

Now don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with just being a RDM/WHM or RDM/BLM and laying down the casting etc that is a role that should always be filled. But if your going to claim that someone who melee's is not doing what their job is defined to do, then you my friend have no Idea what RDM is about.

And as such I would like to pull from my memory something you once said in regards to your ranger and your cor.

"I am not going to be responsible for pulling on my ranger unless someone wants to pay me for my arrows"

"I am not responsible for increasing peoples exp, if they want exp boost get sanction and use an exp band"

So just to join in the fun.

I am not going to be responsible for Refresh, if players want refresh they can buy Yauado Drinks or other juices.

(Man I want to play the game again, anything special happen to it over the last few months?)

[Dyft]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

If you've done this often, then why are you so irritated with people in FFXI? No matter what MMO you play, the majority of people always have opinions on how to do things the best and most efficient way. I've been around for quite some time and have been gaming online for a very long time. It's always been like this in MMO's, people want to maximize their time. If your innovative characters have bucked the system, as you've said, then you've gotten flack from people before. It should be nothing new to you in FFXI and, by now, shouldn't be a surprise or bother you so much. It's just the way of the MMO world.

Because in other games even if you were the gimpist most laughable job with crap gear, you could 1) still get xp by doing solo quests and 2) could still get a party.. you might end up being the joke of the party.. but youd still get one... and not get harassed about playing how you want to play. I guess to me thats the difference :/.....

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by MrMageo

(Man I want to play the game again, anything special happen to it over the last few months?)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Ellipses]

Originally Posted by Dyft

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I just wish I could play Dyft, not play FFXI's vision of Dyft.

Cake is not quantum, unfortunately.

I think the basic conflict comes from the fact that most people don't really enjoy the leveling process itself on their second, third, etc. time through. It can be pretty exciting the first time around, seeing new areas, learning battle strategies, seeing fancy new moves/spells/etc. in action. Hitting new levels and capabilities, realizing the new things you can do now.

But a lot of people you'll end up leveling with have already done it. They've got higher level jobs already, or they're leveling a second character, or a returning player. They've conquered Kazham already. There's no sense of accomplishment left to that anymore, so they just want to get it done so they can get on to what they're really after.

Like TGM said, people have different priorities. No one gets to decide anyone's priorities but their own. The majority of the player base in this game has efficiency in XP parties as a pretty high priority.

You don't have to go along with that, but you don't have to fight it, either. You can do your thing your way, and maybe find a few here and there who don't mind doing it with you. Failing that, you can fight weaker mobs with smaller parties, and it may be slower, but again, there's having cake and there's eating cake.

And no matter what you do, ever, you will not escape people who disapprove of a choice you've made and feel the need to get loud about it. They can only get under your skin as far as you let them.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Ellipses

And no matter what you do, ever, you will not escape people who disapprove of a choice you've made and feel the need to get loud about it. They can only get under your skin as far as you let them.

AMEN!

[Mezlo]

Originally Posted by MrMageo

Oh I agree completely with all except for the Raja's/Fencer thing.

I got a rajas, but was not aware of a latent affect... What is it?

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Ellipses

But a lot of people you'll end up leveling with have already done it. They've got higher level jobs already, or they're leveling a second character, or a returning player. They've conquered Kazham already. There's no sense of accomplishment left to that anymore, so they just want to get it done so they can get on to what they're really after.

qfmanyt's. After several years and 75+meritted jobs, leveling 1-74 is just the boring part between when I decide that I want a certain job at 75 badly enough to warrant leveling it, and when I ding 75, get to put on my fancy gear, and get to actually use it for the stuff that I want to do with it.

While I'm not a total nazi during XP parties, I really just want to get into a party, get my levels, and gtfo so that I can go back to working on getting gear for the new job, or actually using the job for some sort of endgame event. Whatever makes this process go faster, be it great parties, PLing, Campaign, and now FoV, is all welcome, as exping is easily the most boring and redundant part of FFXI to me. If someone wants to mess around and do things in a party that makes it ineffecient and wastes a large chunk of XP/hr potential that's fine, but I expect them to not be mad when I decide that I would rather flag back up and get a party that is more interested in cranking things out as fast as possible.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Mezlo

I got a rajas, but was not aware of a latent affect... What is it?

They're talking about Fencers latent.

I really wish they'd get rid of that damn Fencers ring. Every time I see it I want it for the +5 enspell then I see the latent is when HP < 75% and I remember why I don't have it.

[Callisto]

I actually just found one on a mule that I haven't checked in like 6 months, not really sure when I bought it but I don't even know if I ever used it.

Might be nice in campaign since I've started to leave Stoneskin off in order to take damage...or if I can get that new earring and for some reason feel like epeening some max Enspell damage.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Callisto

that new earring

Was that just added and not implemented yet?