[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A lot of RDMs I meet seem to be frustrated by the fact that Refresh and Sublimation don't stack. While SE never exactly gave the reasons why, when you think about the mechanics of RDM/SCH as a main/sub combo, it starts to become apparent.

Let's talk first about what RDM gets from the SCH subjob:

- Light Arts and Dark Arts
- Addendum: White and Black
- Penury and Celerity
- Parsimony and Alacrity
- Conserve MP trait

Most of that is just fluff in this discussion, let's focus on Alacrity and how RDM's abilities can impact that.

Alacrity is a JA that cuts your casting timer in half, but it does more, it also halves the recast for that spell. Celerity does the same thing, but that's beside the point since Celerity doesn't affect one rather important spell - Aspir.

Now, RDM can already get recast timers down through the Haste Spell, Haste Gear and March if there's a BRD around. RDM could hit the haste cap with easte. This would actually lower the recast a bit for Aspir. Before Haste, as a SCH, I get about a 24 second recast on Aspir just with Alacrity.

RDM would get a lower recast the SCH would.

So let's say a RDM/SCH does Alacrity Aspir twice. You'd potentially be getting back 300 or more MP by the third casting of Aspir, which would probably only take a little over a minute, give or take. The MP returns would be generous considering Dark Arts kicks up your Dark Magic skill.

Now, let's just assume you could stack Refresh and Sublimation and lets ask ourselves this: If all this could be done, what purpose would Convert serve, if any? A RDM/SCH in Dark Arts against an Aspirable mob never would convert as he probably wouldn't ever have to.

And if they did Convert, they would practically have limitless MP. It only takes four minutes to get those two strategems back, though, and that's a lot sooner than even a meritted Convert timer would be.

BRD and COR don't have this kind of MP recovery, much less the manapool to support such excess gains, so a COR/SCH or BRD/SCH stacking Ballad/Evokers on Sublimation doesn't obselete anything nor does it give them amount of max MP than they had. Sublimation would likely just fill out what MP they had under sub.

And that's if they weren't using Alacrity Aspir themselves, if they were, there might not even be much point to them using Sublimation and they definately wouldn't derive the same benefits from Dark Arts as a RDM would.

So RDMs getting a little flustered should realize that if Refresh and Sublimation did stack, it threatens to diminish the value of Convert or just make it even more godly. There's no middle ground on that one.

I think this was implemented to prevent RDM from encroaching on the territory of BLM and SCH specifically, not to make RDMs feel gimped in the face of SCHs getting Evoker's Roll and Ballad with Sublimation active.

With the kind of MP recovery a RDM/SCH could attain, they could nuke for an impressive amount of damage over time. RDMs these days may downplay thier nuking ability but B skill elemental with Parsimony and Alacrity at your side would be very powerful in conserving MP.

So, in short (too late for short) - its your fault it Refresh doesn't work with Sublimation.

But with all seriousness, if you're a RDM in a PT with a SCH, more often than not the SCH will stop using Sublimation to draw benefit from Refresh instead. Just ask and if they seem to be struggling (I'd call below 1/3rd MP struggling), suggest they drop Sublimation and take the Refresh instead.

SCHs don't bite, I swear. Just ask.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

But with all seriousness, if you're a RDM in a PT with a SCH, more often than not the SCH will stop using Sublimation to draw benefit from Refresh instead. Just ask and if they seem to be struggling (I'd call below 1/3rd MP struggling), suggest they drop Sublimation and take the Refresh instead.

SCHs don't bite, I swear. Just ask.

Ya well all of them have biten me so {No, thanks.} I'll keep my suggestions to myself. In the sch's handbook, it must say that if you ask them if they would like refresh instead its like telling them "Oh you are sucking so here let my uber rdm self help you out!" I've even suggested to a whm/sch that he let me refresh him and he bit my head off.......

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, TGM, I don't bite.

Those SCHs probably just play glorified WHMs anyway >.> I've seen some that never Accession or anything.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Well, TGM, I don't bite.

Just need the right bait :3

[Vyuru]

So, beyond that Sublimation is MP later, and Refresh is MP now, what's the difference between the two?

As far as I know they should be roughly equal, if not exactly equal.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I just heard one of the worst ideas to "solve" Refresh not stacking with Sublimation.

Let it stack, but place a cap on how much refresh you can have and how much you can sublimate akin to the Haste adjustment:

This would:

- Make RDM/SCH a manaburn god.
- Gimp Gjllarhorn
- Gimp Relic COR Tricorne
- Gimp Evoker's Roll and SMN bonus
- Gimp stackable Refresh gear.
- Make Sublimation returns equal to all races.

So the plan would be be make RDM god, kick everyone else in the pants to make them feel better. And Galka or Elvaan SCHs would get really shitty MP endurance on SCH.

Better idea: Leave Sublimation and Refresh as is.

So, beyond that Sublimation is MP later, and Refresh is MP now, what's the difference between the two?

As far as I know they should be roughly equal, if not exactly equal

Sublimation is based on your max HP. So the MP returned on Sublimation is influenced by gear and race. Since Galka have such small manapools to start with, high MP returns on Sublimation give them the endurance they need. Meanwhile the smaller returns a Taru SCH get don't hurt so much as they have lots of MP to start with.

Best my Taru can really hope for with a realistic build and merits is about 270 MP returned, other races can get a bit more. So Refresh doesn't exactly equal Sublimation returns. Sublimation can give more, but ya gotta wait on it.

And you really gotta wait since its best to ditch the AF hat for Yigit Turban down the road. All AF head does is make Sublimation work faster by 1HP a tick more than bfore.

[Icemage]

I have no problems with Sublimation and Refresh not stacking.

Frankly, in 99% of cases, Refresh is superior to Sublimation. You can have Refresh on 24/7, it doesn't cause slip damage, you can rest without putting Stoneskin up, and you don't have to wait for a timer on it, even if you're using the Mortarboard to bump Sublimation to 3/tick. If you're /SCH, there's no contest.

The ONLY time Sublimation works better is if you're already full on MP, at which point you can "bank" the extra MP to give yourself an extra boost once you've spent yourself down a bit.

Besides, it's not like RDMs need any help in the popularity department, so making them exclusive to one another makes perfect sense from a game balance standpoint.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Only thing I'd point out is in the case of SCH in most 56 or 68+ PTs and non-nuking group activities, SCH is going to likely have stoneskin up full-time anyway because they'll want to apply fresh stoneskin with some regularity. So its not like Sublimation is going to be a real annoyance with resting.

But then, I never rest while I'm healing on SCH, there's seldom a need for it. But that's more to do with Accession buffs than abilities available for other jobs.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Only thing I'd point out is in the case of SCH in most 56 or 68+ PTs and non-nuking group activities, SCH is going to likely have stoneskin up full-time anyway because they'll want to apply fresh stoneskin with some regularity. So its not like Sublimation is going to be a real annoyance with resting.

But then, I never rest while I'm healing on SCH, there's seldom a need for it. But that's more to do with Accession buffs than abilities available for other jobs.

Even so, you still get more MP over time from Refresh (assuming it's applied consistently) than Sublimation. Every once in a while, you have a 30 second downtime window where the JA timer is down after recovering the MP charged up, even if you time it perfectly so that you don't "overcharge" and waste time with a fully charged Sublimation, so in all cases Refresh provides more MP over time as long as you aren't constantly at full MP.


Icemage

[Saren]

Not that I disagree with everything you are saying but I was running numbers on the effect of max hp on sublimation efficiency recently and the difference between the races isn’t what you might think it is.

Taking the two most extreme examples and some off the top of my head round numbers to demonstrate.

Level 75 Taru whm/sch with 800 ‘max hp’:

Max mp from sublimation – 200mp
Charge time for max sublimation – 300 seconds
Total time for one cycle– 330 seconds
So sublimation is equivalent to 0.61mp/sec (1.8mp/tick)

Level 75 Galka whm/sch with 1200 ‘max hp’:

Max mp from sublimation – 300mp
Charge time for max sublimation – 450 seconds
Total time for one cycle – 480 seconds
So sublimation is equivalent to 0.63mp/sec (1.9mp/tick)

As a whm I will take refresh over Sublimation with no qualms because it’s more mp and stoneskin wearing off when you’re trying to rest is a minor annoyance.

[Truece]

I get just under 1400 HP with my HP build as WHM/SCH (which is also great for Devotion and Martyr).

In Dynamis, I'll tell the RDM in my PT (if any) to not refresh me. There is such an abundance of aspir-fodder there (along with the double-dark weather) that I can survive very well with aspir and by using sublimation and not refresh. I very seldom have to rest and the RDMs love me for it... (pet peeve: the rest of the WHMs in the LS come as anything but /SCH.)

In other activities, however, (ie Nyzul or merit PTs) if there is a RDM in the PT, I will use Refresh instead of sublimation. Sublimation is handy to have up if I happen to get split up from the RDM in Nyzul Isle, but getting that 3MP/tick now is so much better than letting my sublimation build at 2mp/tick.

[Callisto]

When I work with SCHs or /SCHs it's easy, if I see them hit 300 or less I tell them to pop their Sublimation pool and toss a refresh, then they can use it again when my cast wears.

As far as RDM/SCH, assuming there are aspirable mobs(Dynamis being the easiest example), I honestly rarely Convert as is. Strap on Anrin Obi and let the statues/MP mobs keep be running on F. I still haven't gotten around to fully finishing my SCH sub, but really it doesn't matter if Sublimination doesn't work with Refresh to me. Refresh gives more and doesn't chip away at my Stoneskin, and I'm already sitting on 4/tick minimum.

Light/Dark Arts can be nice for the MP savings, however barring Alacrity/Celerity the casting time reduction does not seem to exceed what I was already getting in my standard Fast Cast gear for 90% of my spells(I think Raise was the only one). I would really only see myself using Penury/Parsimony for half-priced cures and nukes if I were to actually use /SCH, and even then Sea is possibly the only event I do where I could viably see myself giving up Stun, Sleepga, or Erase.

Refresh/Sublimation not stacking doesn't really matter to me since /SCH is honestly not the strongest subjob for RDM in most cases. Aside from missing the utility spells mentioned above, the 1 minute timer on LA/DA is somewhat prohibitive, as more than any other job RDM is extremely likely to be switching off between white and black magic a hell of a lot more often than once a minute.

[MrMageo]

I find it really irritating in the sense that some people just refuse to communicate. I recall doing events with a WHM/SCH. I asked at start if they will be using sublimation or would they like refresh, no response. So I didn't cast refresh, all the sudden I get a tell "where's my refresh" So I cast it and sure enough , "No Effect" waste of 40 MP because of a dumb ass.

That is the biggest issue I found with Sublimation/SCH its not so much the stacking it is when there is a lack of communication, or someone is just being a retard and fucking with you. Either way ever since then, I never cast refresh on a SCH or /SCH who didn't answer me, if they want it they can do it themselves, baring that, get some Yagudo Drink's I always carry 3 in my bazaar for dumb fucks who are ignorant. For anyone who does answer etc we worked a plan and it was good, but some people just piss you off.

Otherwise good write up BBQ, I personally never thought of using Aspir like that, which is odd since I did use /SCH for Chain-Drain static vs Byakko. +1 to you.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Callisto

Aside from missing the utility spells mentioned above, the 1 minute timer on LA/DA is somewhat prohibitive, as more than any other job RDM is extremely likely to be switching off between white and black magic a hell of a lot more often than once a minute.

Unless you need to constantly pull -na spells from Accession:White, there's very little reason to leave Dark Arts to switch up to Light Arts, even with the 10% extra cost for stayng in Dark Arts with white magic. /SCH won't let you access Erase either way, though.

There's just not that much of a recast or MP penalty for using White Magic as there is for doing elemental magic with Light Arts active. Skill isn't important to your cures, status cures - it really only matters to enhancing.

As a main, SCH tends to lock themselves into one role or another for a situation, as switching between LA/DA and slapping on the Addendums would kill thier Strategem Charges. I can see a RDM switching more often, but I wouldn't unless I really had to. I think as a RDM/SCH I could stand to take the LA MP penalty on MP/Recast to Dispel.

A lot of things with SCH work out the complete opposite of what you'd expect. Spending more on Accession Stoneskin would be better than trying to spend less on Cure III with Penury. Access/SS just saved me from having to cure almost 350 HP per membe. That's very much worth the doubled cost of Stoneskin when I cast it with that ability.

This is why I find the paranoia toward SCH to be silly, but I've explaind that elsewhere. People look at Manifestation and think its awesome. Its really not that great, it doubles the recast times to enfeebling or dark magic i'd prefer to cast as soon as possible. Ebulliance is raw epeen, but if I can shave 1/2 MP cost off Thunder IV and break over 1k damage or more, why even bother with the 20% boost Ebullience gives?

/SCH gives you the two weakest Light Arts strategems and the two strongest Dark Arts strategems, I'd be more inclined to stay in Dark Arts if I was /SCH, but only if the situation warranted it. RDM is unfortunately called upon as a healer a lot, but I have to say I do like the existing Dark Arts potential it has.

[Icemage]

Dark Arts definitely helps RDM more than Light Arts on a spell-per-spell basis. Not only are nukes generally more expensive than cures, but you take a much bigger penalty for that low Elemental Magic score than you do for a low Healing Magic score.

Generally speaking though, in most situations I find myself using Light Arts much more than Dark Arts (Campaign, Besieged, some small party configurations, etc.), simply because more of my MP is spent on white magic than black magic, so usually I'll just flip into Dark Arts for a burst of Aspir/Drain + maaaybe a nuke and then flip right back into Light Arts.

Really the only stock-in-trade RDM spells that suffer under Light Arts are the dark magic enfeebles (Gravity, Blind, Dispel, and to a lesser extent Bio I/II), and even there you only really sacrifice a couple points of MP and a slightly longer recast, since it doesn't impact your Enfeebling Magic score.

If you're in a situation where you're nuking a lot, though (maybe manaburning something), then Dark Arts helps a ton.


Icemage