RDM Tanking

[WishMaster3K]

OMFG. The last RDM tanking thread was Ruic's experiments during his 50s.

Back in 2004.

Something must be done about this.

I suppose this entry post is just filler, because I'm in class right now, but I'm inspired now.

Forget RDM Melee, RDM Tanking is where it's at, damnit! I'm inspired because my LS leader made me come to Attowha Chasm as RDM/NIN, with the intention of having me tank Feeler Antlion.

I should say, "surprisingly, it worked!" but it really wasn't much of a surprise for anyone who knows me.

When I get to my laptop back home, I'll detail how the runs went and what my macros were and when I used certain gear as opposed to other gear, because the run actually was very simple, and in the case of Feeler Antlion, I was able to mitigate damage consistently to the mid-50s, Stoneskin was up long enough for me to survive a few hits and cast Ni, and being that I was taking damage in the 50s, could easily cure myself until Ni was up. (Protip: Ichi is impossible to cast inbetween her attacks.)

But it was very fun. I made some mistakes, and there was some support required from a co-tank (to a certain extent) but it's very doable.

Being that I am probably the best RDM in my linkshell, I expect that they'll have me tank a ton more shit, so I'll probably be able to write a guide or something.

Anyway, more details later.

[Callisto]

OMFG. The last RDM tanking thread was Ruic's experiments during his 50s.

Getting into RDM tankage!

First page, 6 posts down, slacker.

BUT! I agree, we shall converse...FOR SCIENCE!!
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This is something I wanted to piece together for the new guide anyways, I suppose this would be a good place to do it.

Anyways, everyone's probably seen them already, but here's Belkin's LJ on RDM/NIN tanking, and of course Kaeko's Enmity table for RDM.

Probably the first thing I wanted to go over was how much Haste you need to cap Utsu Recast timers...

The combination of Warlock's Chapeau, Duelist's Tabard, and Loqacious Earring will leave you with 21% recast reduction(Goliard Saio works for the body too, if you haven't gotten lucky on your AF2 body drop yet). Tack on Haste and you're at 36%, 14 from the 50% cap.

If you're getting double March that will more than cap you out, however I generally tend to assume the case of 1 March/1 Ballad, giving another 10%~ and leaving you about 4 from the cap. The easiest way to make up the difference is Dusk Gloves + Dusk Ledelsens, however you could also do a combination of Nashira Seraweels/Dusk Ledelsen's or Nashira Crackows and Dusk Gloves.

[eticket109]

Didn't we just have this thread?

Seriously, just search all of Mageo's posts

[LadyKiKi]

And the saga continues!

Otherwise, for those interested:

Spam Dispel, equip every possible (within reason) emnity gear, spam enfeebles, keep stoneskin/shadows up/cure yourself. And don't die.

[eticket109]

Spam Dispel, equip every possible (within reason) emnity gear, spam enfeebles, keep stoneskin/shadows up/cure yourself. And don't die.

that pretty much sums it all up right there.

[Callisto]

Didn't we just have this thread?

Seriously, just search all of Mageo's posts

That's what's linked above, but that got a little .

And don't give that advice out too often.

And the saga continues!

Otherwise, for those interested:

Spam Dispel, equip every possible (within reason) emnity gear, spam enfeebles, keep stoneskin/shadows up/cure yourself. And don't die.

I suppose that's one way to sum it up.
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Also: Sleep 1/2 are more MP:Hate efficient than Dispel, you actually want to spam those and use Dispel to fill in between, unless it's something you do not want to build a Sleep resist(Wyrms).

[Yellow Mage]

Even though Callisto already had a thread about it, it's good that it's brought up: I honestly couldn't agree more with this line.

Forget RDM Melee, RDM Tanking is where it's at, damnit!

*sigh*

I just wish I had more time to get my levels and try out all this stuff.

[eticket109]

And don't give that advice out too often.

I try not to. Heck, I got a little sick to my stomach just typing that out. Though maybe it was the Taco Bell.

[WishMaster3K]

Bind and Blind are also buckets of fun.

I think more than what to have in terms of gear, is how/when to utilize your resources and what is applicable to certain situations.

[LadyKiKi]

Ok, second summary

Assuming best/near best gear (on the top of my mind):

Idle in AF2 Hat/ABody/Morrigan Body
Macro all stoneskin stuff/fast cast stuff when casting stoneskin
All fast cast/haste gear when casting shadows
Spam enfeebles in fast cast gear

Mermaid Ring
Hades Earring x2
Dual Chainsaw Swords
Warwolf Melt
High Breath Mantle/Resentment Cape

Umbra Cape/Jelly Ring/Earth Staff for them ohshit moments.

[Tomato_Kai]

Umbra Cape/Jelly Ring/Earth Staff for them ohshit moments.

I'd also include a half-pint of Ben & Jerry's and a box of tissues on that list.

[IfritnoItazura]

Why tank Feeler Antlion with RDM? Can it control TP feeding better than NIN? (Dealing with multiple Executioner Antlions really, really sucked, and I'd rather not repeat that experience.)

My favorite setup is NIN, BRD, WHM, SMN for the Feeler tank party. Can replace SMN with SCH for Stoneskin, but we don't have any SCH that high, though either is optional.

[WishMaster3K]

Alrighty then, Ita! Time to address the concerns!

Let me first say that we all know that RDM tanking is situational. I wouldn't go so far as to say "HIGHLY" situational, but for the case of Feeler Antlion, I feel that RDM/NIN works well cause of these reasons:

No damage is being done to it.
It has less than average accuracy
It hits about as hard as a DC
Fast Cast + Haste was good enough

Now, I don't have good gear, by any means. So, I'm just running off the Haste Spell and Fast Cast. Phalanx, Earth Staff and Jelly Ring were my only means of damage mitigation (I sold my Cheviot Cape years ago when I thought I'd never need it again ; ; ), but for the sole reason that there wasn't anyone else dragging hate away from me, and RDM gets decent tools, I did pretty well.

I think that RDM/NIN has a very good deal of balance in this fight, because I get hit just enough times for it to spawn a monster, and then I can go untouched for a good portion of time (giving party chance to kill adds). It is in this instance, that with a RDM/NIN tank, the add party has to be AWESOME, because if they get overwhelmed, then there is but so much a lone RDM/NIN tank can do.

The system worked best with me and a NIN share-tanking. The THF was free to do all the hate grabbing and such on the NIN, and it was easy for me to catch up in hate.

So we covered the "No one else is around to grab hate." Mages have to be notified about cure moderation. Cure 3 and Cure 5 are ok, but Cure 4 seems to grab TOO much hate. Most of the time, my WHMs were bored, but probably getting sick of me, because on Dispel, Blind, Bind, Sleep I and Sleep II, I switch in Enmity Gear, but for my buffs, I put on my "Reduction" gear setup.

Getting hit reduces enmity, but we generate it fast enough and have buffs to cover our asses.

Anything that misses a RDM has horrendous accuracy, and Feeler Antlion missed me on more than one occasion. With my Reduction gear setup, it hits me for 50-70 damage, easily curable. And in addition, it seems that more often than not, I don't get interrupted on Stoneskin, even when I'm getting smacked around, because this whore attacks FAST. I think Stoneskin, and damage reduction is a big reason I was able to survive so long without having extensive Haste, which brings me to my next point-

Callisto ran the numbers, but I wasn't even concerned with that, since I won't have gear like that for a while.. Fast Cast and Haste and self buffs and Quick hate generating tools are a main reason that I feel my RDM build would hold up better than my PLD build.

RDM/NIN on this is essentially self-sufficient, whereas PLD, just like in almost any endgame activity it seems to require an entire stable of characters. A Properly geared NIN can solo tank this (I've seen it done.)

A Lot of balancing is required on the RDM's end. I don't recommend novices doing this... I had to watch my MP, monitor my spell cycle, and make sure I had shadows up when my buffs needed to be reapplied.

And if the fight drags on.. Well after about 20 or so minutes, I had to Convert.. That's where balancing enmity with another tank is essential. The NIN in my LS would voke, and I'd purposely get hit to lower my Enmity, and when it wasn't facing me, I put up shadows and Converted. With full MP, I was back in the fight.

We teamed up with another linkshell for this run, and we were short on NINs, and absolutely refused to have NINs tank the Feeler. The one NIN in our linkshell has no enmity gear and.. well, he can't really tank, so his shadows would fall and the Feeler would be all over the place. Me standing next to him as RDM/WHM and spamming Dispel, Blind, Bind and the Sleeps, and making sure I had all my buffs was good enough to equalize hate with him, so after that one sloppy run, LS Leader had me go sub NIN and try main tanking.

I think that covers everything. Any questions, feel free to add them in. I'll be able to properly document another fight, because we have 3 pops on Tuesday and 3 more on Saturday.

[IfritnoItazura]

IIRC, Feeler Antlion has enmity reset TP move(s)? No?

RDM/NIN is terrific for building enmity over time, but I think large spike enmity is more useful for this fight than enmity over time. The NIN who tanked Feeler in our LS has /DRK and the gears for it ready, but elected to go /WAR, because the extra enmity just isn't needed. (We definitely had the support power for NIN/DRK, too.)

He didn't really hit the Feeler Antlion much; he stayed un-engaged for most of the fight. The controlled TP feeding is done mostly with Ninjutsu instead--he only engage briefly from time to time in order to speed up TP feeding (or relieve boredom--not entirely sure) when deemed safe.

Not that I think Stoneskin, Phalanx, Fast Cast, etc. aren't useful, but taking damage as the primary mean to feed it TP doesn't sound very controlled at all.

* * *

How we do Rostrum Pumps

We had several runs, so the details differ slightly from run to run, but the basic set up:

Feeler Party:
NIN/WAR
WHM
BRD
SMN (sometimes)
(rest are extra people who overflowed from other parties; they don't touch Feeler until Alastor pops)

Tank Party:
Tank 1 (usually NIN)
Tank 2 (usually NIN or PLD/NIN)
WHM
RDM
(rest are DDs--melee and BLMs)

Overlfow Party:
WHM
RDM (usually)
(rest are DDs--melee and BLMs)

We deal with Feeler at spawn point; we don't drag it away.

One of the melee is BST--that's our "Add Team". She takes care of any local Tracker Antlion that links, with help from Tank party and Overflow party if they're not busy, but otherwise she can handle up to three (non-NM) Antlion at once by herself.

The Tank party lends a NIN to help if the NIN on Feeler goes down for whatever reason, but otherwise its job is to work with the Overflow Party and destroy Executioners ASAP--so the Feeler party can spawn another.

Once Alastor pops, one NIN from tank party and one RDM (usually me) kites Alastor until everyone else kills Feeler (and any Executioner it may spawn--but Feeler is always killed first). Once that's taken care of, the whole alliance pounces on Alastor. (Well, everyone except the BST--she watches for repop of local Tracker Antlions.)

As for the Alastor fight itself... Umm... When we're low on BLMs, it's SC+MB to make the best use out of their big nukes. When we had a lot of BLMs, they tended to go a little nutty, and WHMs had scramble to get out of Breakga range as the NM run amok... >_>;

I would say RDM/NIN looks to be more forgiving and more self sufficient than a NIN tank, but not sure how it can best control TP feeding; maybe using small nukes? Letting an NM hit a tank for TP just sounds too wild to me.

Our NIN did go down on Feeler a few times--nothing like a red dot NIN on Feeler to give an alliance wide heart attack. Another NIN was able to grab the critter with relative ease when that happened, even though he didn't touch the Feeler beforehand.

[Callisto]

We typically do things like this with the holding tank solo or with one WHM, having /blockaid on so that outside members can't cure and generate hate on the holding tank(this addresses Ita's Enmity reset concern). A DRG/BLU is on links, and the rest of the group is on the ones that Feeler pops.

And to address TP control Itaz, probably the best way is Dia II/III for 1 point of damage and avoid getting hit outside of that, otherwise Aero I would probably be sufficient.
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Ok, second summary

Assuming best/near best gear (on the top of my mind):

Idle in AF2 Hat/ABody/Morrigan Body
Macro all stoneskin stuff/fast cast stuff when casting stoneskin
All fast cast/haste gear when casting shadows
Spam enfeebles in fast cast gear

Mermaid Ring
Hades Earring x2
Dual Chainsaw Swords
Warwolf Melt
High Breath Mantle/Resentment Cape

Umbra Cape/Jelly Ring/Earth Staff for them ohshit moments.

Heh part of the reason I'm doing this is to show that RDM tanking is possible without this gear, I think maybe 3 of the RDMs on this forum even have some combination of Duelist's Chapeau and/or A.Body, I'm certainly not one of them.

And RDM can get twice as much Enmity from 2x Eris' Earrings rather than the Hades, for about 1/5 the gil cost.
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Some of the technical business for those who are interested in terms of RDM building hate...

I'm sure most of you know about the currently popular hate model of CE + VE = TE from the Kanican blog, with CE being Cumulative Enmity which does not decay over time but does decrease when damage is taken, and VE being Volatile Enmity which decays over time as well when Utsusemi shadows are taken.

Part of the reason why RDM tanking works so well is that most of the spells RDM uses for hate build both forms of Enmity simultaneously, whereas most of the JAs and Spells from other forms of tanking give large chunks of VE but little CE, meaning they need to be used at spiked intervals to maintain a higher TE than the rest of the party members. The idea behind RDM/NIN is that while you're working to build your VE, your CE is being boosted greatly, and most competing enmity from DDs is going to be VE, so that once hate is yours it's on like glue.

As stated above, the main hate tools for RDM are Sleep I and II, Dispel, and Blind.

Sleeps and Dispel all build the same amount of CE and VE when used, while not giant chunks they are moderate and build up. Sleep 1 and Dispel both make the same amount, though Sleep 1 costs slightly less MP. Dispel has a much faster recast though, making it ideal for building hate early in the fight. Sleep II is slightly more MP than Dispel, though greater hate than the other 2 spells it also has a longer recast timer.

Blind is your main VE spell, it's worth slightly more than 1/3 a Provoke and 1/2 of Flash. Bind also makes the same amount as Blind, though it has a much longer recast timer, and in kited fights Bind can sometimes accidentally MPK a party member if you accidentally stick the spell, so I try to avoid using it in my rotation.

Ideally you would open with Sleep II, then Sleep I, then spam Dispel for a few until Sleep II is back up. Without an opening TA it is sometimes advised to have the DDs give you maybe 10-15 seconds to make some hate before they jump in, although that approach doesn't typically work with the ones in my LS. Once you have about 8~ casts in and some reasonable CE built up it's good to start working in Blind and cycling between all 4 spells.

If you've gotten around 30 casts (other than Blind) in and you've not been taking any damage it'd be a good time to save some MP and use Blind only for a bit, as your CE should be near capped.