[Silent Howler]

I saw something posted in that "wish list" thread for job adjustments, but instead of derailing the whole topic I decided to post a new thread for you people to discuss in.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

• WHM - Give them Refresh, just do it. Its White Magic, fuck what RDMs think

At first I was going to respond to this with, "Why does Red Mage get Refresh at all? Just give it to White Mage." But by then I had already realized the answer. SE intended for Red Mage to be a fighter mage. How are you suppose to get your MP back if you're up on the front line? And that is why Red Mage was given Refresh. However, because it can be used on every party member, people have abused this. SE made a mistake and instead of Red Mage more easily being able to participate in melee, they are forced to stand in the back row and cure. And now, ladies and gentlemen, I may have found a solution to this.

Make it so Refresh works the same way Warp does. Refresh becomes self casting only while Refresh II can be used on any party member. Refresh is given to both RDM and WHM, but only WHM gets Refresh II. This will allow SE's intended goal to still be achieved, but not without hindering RDMs to the point where they are forbidden from the front line. This also gives WHM a boost, as people have argued that they can't sustain themselves as well as a RDM can making them less favorable. This would basically push WHM to fill in the role that RDM has been and more freely open up RDM's options, possibly allowing them to return to the front line.

[Balfree]

I've suggested this a while ago. Refresh being a self-spell only avaliable to whm at 41 AND rdm at 37, and avaliable as a subjob if you went /rdm.

And refresh II for longer duration and ability to cast on others, avaliable only to red mages, outside of subjob reach like level 41 ^^.

Would then, every mage sub rdm? ...

WHM could sub whatever they wanted as they would have their own refresh.

BLM would probably sub rdm, don't they already? at 75? like, most of the time? Like me? i only sub /whm when -na spells are a necessity and that hasnt happened too often now has it? When do manaburns need -na spells? (no i dont like manaburns)

SMN would most probably sub rdm and this would MAYBE overpower them as they could leave their avatars out all the time. Ahem... doesnt this already happen if they happen to have a bard or a rdm on their pt? I dont think it would be a problem. Maybe they would be really strong soloers at 75 if they got their own refresh. So what? What's the problem with that?

Who would really suffer from this? Red mages obviously. Who would need red mages if all mages now had their own refresh? This is where a serious job change would have to occur. Refresh II wouldnt stack with Refresh I, it would overwrite it, but make it 4mp per tick, and boom, everyone now wants to be a red mage. Oh wait that's already happening. And give a red mage some more love, up their sword skills to that of a Blue mage, give them more WS's, buff up the enspells and you have a really solid flexible job. LET THEM MELEE if they want to, but not to the point where you can TP burn with them. RDM truly shines when they get refresh and that will always be their strenght, and at endgame they can be awesome main healers, but what if we could do more while not hurting game mechanics? If WHM had refresh like its been suggested, they would be more sought out in the endgame scene, RDMs would be invited to refresh the blue mages and the paladins and others, and this would solve 2 things: WHM would get more invites and RDM would finally be able to do more than main healing at endgame. Win win situation.

Now, other things would be broken, you could solo as a DD/rdm pretty well, couldnt you? Like.. as if you subbed DNC!... I see monks ninjas and dark knights and samurais soloing not just for exp but BCNMs and NMs too. How much would /rdm refresh really break the game? DNC already broke anything that was left unbroken in that subject.

ps. Oh btw. Refresh II should be really MP costy, like 70mp. I havent done the maths but it should be costy enough so that refreshing 4 people would seriously break the ability for a red mage to main heal aswell as refresh everyone. Bye bye Pinkmage, hello flex-o-mage.

I am a RDM and a BLM, I can't say I have much experience in RDM endgame as my RDM is lv71, so this is all based on my own view of things, I cant say how much any of this would affect HNM and all those other endgame activities as i dont have much experience in that sort of thing, so go easy on me, or ill murder a kitten with a sharp object ^.^

[Sevv]

Ladies and Gentleman you have just killed Red Mage.

[bikkebakke]

I like Balfree's idea... giving whm Refresh II would honestly put RDM out of a job.

[Sevv]

Subable refresh or giving whm the spell kills red mage in an instant. No more merit parties, no spot in alliances it would make Red Mage a solo job only.

[Balfree]

I specifically addressed that issue on my post, Sevv.

Even if what i suggested isnt the best choice, there has to be some other option.

You may ask, Why do all this? isnt it fine the way it is?

I absolutely despise having to rest for mp, IT MAKES MY MAGE JOB BORING. And RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot, not that i personally mind main healing as RDM, i actually like it, but it'd be nice to be a flexible job like its supposed to be, and at endgame there isnt much anything else other than cure and refresh i'm afraid.

The big issue around all this is that FFXI wasnt made with a refresh 2 in mind and all these huge almost unthinkable changes to the game... it would have to be a massive overhaul of the whole battle system and mob strenght to keep things balanced.

Not that they have done a think to stop BLU soloing imps, which i find somewhat game-breaking.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Balfree

The big issue around all this is that FFXI wasnt made with a refresh 2 in mind and all these huge almost unthinkable changes to the game... it would have to be a massive overhaul of the whole battle system and mob strenght to keep things balanced.

It's a lot of work to make RDM less desirable in exp/merit parties, from my perspective.

If a BLM has Refresh and Cure III from RDM, what's keeping merit parties from asking it to stop casting nukes and main heal instead? While some BLMs (and SMNs) wouldn't mind, those proposed changes would create more reasons for "BLM curebot" (and "SMN curebot"). Though it's true that those two jobs can use a dose of popularity in "normal" parties, this doesn't sound like the right way to go.

The reason why merit parties can get away with one RDM and one BRD (or COR) for good exp--sometimes, even with just one RDM and no other mage or support is workable--is that the targeted monsters are not dangerous enough. I've suggested massive overhaul to many different monsters before, but thinking back, that's a lot of adjustments. Large number of changes means a lot of testing and tweaking before they can go live, resulting in a very long time to wait even if S-E would commit to such course of action.

A better idea may be to lower the amount of exp earned from T-VT creatures while hiking the amount from IT, so players would have the incentive fight higher level monsters and work out new strategies and party configurations to get 15k+/hour.

Higher level monsters means more danger, thus would make sense to have more than one major source of curing in party. (Would make RDM enfeebs more worthwhile, too, so RDM would have another reason to rely on another mage or DNC for additional cures.)

Who knows? Maybe fighting ITs would mean a return to SC+MB, too.

Originally Posted by Balfree

Not that they have done a think to stop BLU soloing imps, which i find somewhat game-breaking.

Imps are broken; too little HP is just too tempting, and too easy.

Originally Posted by Balfree

I absolutely despise having to rest for mp, IT MAKES MY MAGE JOB BORING. And RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot, not that i personally mind main healing as RDM, i actually like it, but it'd be nice to be a flexible job like its supposed to be, and at endgame there isnt much anything else other than cure and refresh i'm afraid.

That's contrary to my endgame experience so far. (Dynamis, Sea NM, Limbus, Sky gods, one minor land HNM, one minor ToAU HNM.) There's a lot of Refresh involved, but only supplemental curing--I don't have the MP for much more than that. See below:

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.

I should amend that I do main heal during Assault runs--but Assaults can be level capped as an option, and the ones we do are rather easy, so I'm hesitant to classify it as "endgame".

Don't mind main healing at all, as long as it's within my ability.

Oh, and "pink mage" in WS spam party doesn't involve all that much Refresh--it's mostly Haste, with some occasional cure dumping when the melees aren't bouncing the monsters well.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Balfree

RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot

Endgame is more then just meriting.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Let's look at the forms of Refresh for a second.

Refresh - level 41
Ballad I - level 25
Ballad II - level 55
Evoker's Roll - 40

One is actually under sub level, the other three are not. Ballad I is actually adequate for the level BRD gets it. Kind of intentional placing.

Refresh, Convert and Haste were given to RDM when SE realized "Holy Crap, no one invites RDMs" but Refresh wasn't the only thing RDM was given. Haste and Convert were also given to RDM and are a rather signifigant reasons and Covert has also been why RDM has so much MP endurance.

If WHM got Refresh, would RDMs be out of a job? No, BAD RDMs would be out of a job. They'd quit because they think Refresh defines thier invites. Good RDMs can make use of Refresh and not have to Convert terribly often.

As for Refresh II - completely unneccesary, unless it was just given a higher duration. No other job save for BRD has a second tier or refresh and that second tier puts them fairly even with RDM. COR's refresh isn't consistant, but averages 2 or 3 and if they're lucky and get 11, they get 4 MP a tick, add one more MP a tick IF a SMN is in PT. COR as the strongest duration of the three types of refresh, but its potency varies.

Subbable Refresh - Awful Idea. Keep it 38+ no matter what. For the level it comes at, Ballad I is more than adequate for refresh purposes and passable if you need the refresh that badly.

Finally, I didn't make the comment for the sake of the "magical swordsman" nonsense that's been floating around with RDM lately - Espells are still a joke and pretty pitiful. I stated it because RDM has a hideous advantage over WHM for invites thanks to Refresh and Convert. Give WHM Refresh, let RDM keep convert. Good RDMs don't need to covert each time its up, but its still useful to have and a great exclusive for RDM.

I don't think many more Refresh-type abilites need to be passed around, especially now that we have a healer-type class that can cure with TP and its a pretty damn good sub for melee jobs. That helps a load on the mage side or things. I would ask SE to fix Aspir Samba so it always siphons MP, though, its kinda silly that we finally get another type of MP restoration that would be really good for frontliners, yet it only works on certain mobs.

[Balfree]

yea i must admit that none of this is actually necessary, just a personal want more than anything

also... quoting myself:

I can't say I have much experience in RDM endgame as my RDM is lv71, so this is all based on my own view of things, I cant say how much any of this would affect HNM and all those other endgame activities as i dont have much experience in that sort of thing, so go easy on me, or ill murder a kitten with a sharp object ^.^

i am now skinning a kitten for dinner

THANKS TO YOU

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

As long as it isn't my mithra, skin any kittens you want.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Finally, I didn't make the comment for the sake of the "magical swordsman" nonsense that's been floating around with S-E forever

FTFY

But I don't care what you made your post for the sake for, it was a good post.

But I like the OP better: genius.

[Neomage]

Originally Posted by Balfree

BLM would probably sub rdm, don't they already? at 75? like, most of the time? Like me? i only sub /whm when -na spells are a necessity and that hasnt happened too often now has it? When do manaburns need -na spells? (no i dont like manaburns)

SMN would most probably sub rdm and this would MAYBE overpower them as they could leave their avatars out all the time. Ahem... doesnt this already happen if they happen to have a bard or a rdm on their pt? I dont think it would be a problem. Maybe they would be really strong soloers at 75 if they got their own refresh. So what? What's the problem with that?

I actually like this idea. True, one of RDM's key abilities is Refresh, but keep in mind that Paladins, Blue Mages, and other magic-using jobs will still want Refresh from either Ballad or Refresh II or Evoker's Roll. And you critics who say "Nobody will invite RDM/BRD/COR anymore!" you are forgetting that RDM also gets Haste, will be able to put out decent damage, and still is the best enfeebler in the game. Not to mention, this will push RDM and COR to the mage-side of the spectrum, and let BRDs use their wide array fo melee buffs.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Imps are broken; too little HP is just too tempting, and too easy.

THANK YOU!!!

[Eiyoko]

Giving several jobs a similar ability would cause some of the jobs to lose their original intent and flavor, so to speak. I'm pretty much against any other job getting refresh other than the ones that have it right now. When you take a look at their skill levels, it is clearly seen that White Mages specialize in curing, Black Mages on magic damage, and Red Mages specialize in enhancing and enfeebling. Also, Refresh may be white magic, but dispel is black magic, and I don't see any Black Mages casting it.

Besides, White Mage has more stuff to do than cast buffs on everyone in sight every 2 seconds. Why else do you think most Red Mages typically don't like to main heal?

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Sevv

Ladies and Gentleman you have just killed Red Mage.

How has your "fighter mage" experience been on Red Mage?

True it does drastically change the way things work now and probably the reason why some people have leveled Red Mage, but this would basically "set things right" to the way things were intended. (Don't forgot about those "front line spells" SE was talking about.) Because the community has adapted, however, this change may not be acceptable.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

As for Refresh II - completely unneccesary, unless it was just given a higher duration. No other job save for BRD has a second tier or refresh and that second tier puts them fairly even with RDM. COR's refresh isn't consistant, but averages 2 or 3 and if they're lucky and get 11, they get 4 MP a tick, add one more MP a tick IF a SMN is in PT. COR as the strongest duration of the three types of refresh, but its potency varies.

Um, I'm not sure if you understand. Refresh II would be what Refresh is now, so are you saying that Refresh, as it is now, is completely unneccesary?