[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Onionsoilder

That does bring up a new problem though: SCH/RDM...

Yeah, make Refresh subbable and, well, Accession happens to affect Enhancing magic by converting it to AoE. Then you have a mage that can do everything RDM can do minus convert and fun solo tricks, but with AoE Refresh. Plus, SCH cuts corners on spell cost

[Akashimo]

There is another option....
Remove all refresh spells from the game!
<-<;

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by Akashimo

There is another option....
Remove all refresh spells from the game!
<-<;

Congrats you just killed FFXI, go akashimo just need to kill rl and you win! =D

[Coinspinner]

Using the current duration of Refresh and the current recharge for Stratagems, SCH wouldn't be able do full-time Refreshra. Doesn't seem that useful to me. Whoever has the non-self-target Refresh would get priority over SCH/RDM. Whether that's WHM or RDM, those jobs have higher skill and a better selection of abilities. Perhaps in mana-burn...

[Quetzalcoatl]

Maybe not Refresh II...keep on that aspect as it is.

But why not give WHM a self only Refresh spell? (insert name here) maybe not as powerfull as Refresh but 2MP/tic would be nice.combined with some "Refresh gear+Sanction+/SMN" that would give us 5MP/tic wich is what PLDs get with Sanction and Refresh (6MP/tic when using Parade Gorget and with 90% HP)so that would not break RDM invites at 41+ and will help WHM cure more eficently with out a Refresher...that would make WHM get more invites and RDM will still get invites to Refresh PLDs BLUs BLMs and SMNs imo.

or maybe just give WHM Auto Refresh I and Auto Refresh II...(40 and 60)

i dont know but maybe that would work and i would love self Refresh with my WHM :p

[Aksannyi]

Well in that case it would be used on an "as it's up" basis, much like when I Divine Seal + Erase. It's nice when it's up, and when it's not I just do single target like always.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

As BBQ said on the Job Wishlist thread:

It wouldn't put Red Mage out of a job. Just the bad ones.

You completely forget that the main selling point of Red Mages in FFXI is their Enfeebling. All the other stuff about Curing, Hasting, DDing: all stuff to be done on the side at the appropriate times.

Have you played RDM? Lately? Enfeebling is a joke now at higher levels. Ooh, I can make a monster take 1 less swing in its 30 seconds of life (that would only have hit an utsusemi shadow anyway)! Yeah, I really want to invite *that* job over another WAR/NIN.

RDM and WHM both have haste, both have cures up to IV, both can have most status cures and Erase (if the RDM is /WHM). WHM also has better curagas, higher tier regens and raise, cure V, stronger protectra and shellra, and free choice of SJ (so *at least* your choice of light arts, conserve mp or auto-refresh); RDM has refresh, fast cast and convert. And convert is only once per 10 minutes, so basically, RDM has refresh and fast cast. It doesn't take a genius to see that if you take away refresh, RDM has nothing to make them worth inviting to a meleeburn. So as long as meleeburns are the only party style that makes competitive exp/hr...

Parties that are fighting Ts (and honorary VTs that don't fight any harder than Ts) don't need an enfeebler, so until Itaz's suggestion is implemented, enfeebling will stay pointless (in exp; there's plenty of other content where it's already worthwhile).

As such, Red Mage has two primary problems later in the game: resists, and busy-ness. This thread's whole idea is to reduce the Red Mage's busy-ness, so they can get back to focusing on Enfeebling and other stuff, as needed.

Yeah, reduce their busy-ness by making sure they don't have any party members to buff.

Resists are only an issue on HNM and imps (and ahriman, but nobody fights them). Anything else you can stick any enfeeble you want nearly 100% after staves and AF. But it doesn't matter because common exp/merit mobs will die before the enfeeble has any significant effect. Even BLMs' magic is just a minor nuisance when they have 30 seconds to live and will probably be interrupted by a Rampage anyway.

And, speaking of which, didn't you get the memo? S-E still intends for Red Mages to frontline (at least sometimes), and right now, their looking at giving us more spells to do that! While i'm not exactly a fan of the "even more spells to cast" approach, it still shows that S-E may still yet have an idea with what they're doing with their long-neglected job.

RDM is fine; if you want a melee mage, BLU is over that way (and if that isn't melee enough, DRK has even better melee and less magic). RDM *do* frontline sometimes - campaign, assault, besieged, soloing/small groups, etc. But lacking an A skill makes it not very effective to melee high-level enemies. That's fine, there are plenty of melee-focused jobs in the game. RDM *isn't one of them*, as you can tell by its skill caps (A+ in a magic skill, but no A weapons) and job abilities (fast cast and convert - both aimed at allowing them to use more magic).


If you really want to fix the problems with enfeebling and the healer role shrinking until half a party member can do it, Itazura nailed it on page one: change the exp system so players get better exp from more difficult mobs. RDM and WHM make a great team, if the monster isn't so weak that they're way more healing than you actually need and enfeebling is pointless. There's no reason to pit them against each other. DD-heavy zerg parties are what is killing WHM invite rate, not RDM's supposed superiority in the role.

[Feenicks]

Am I the only one here who doesn't run out of MP so fast that I need more Refreshes? If people knew how to properly and intelligently conserve their MP without having to rely on eight different jobs spamming Refresh on them and complaining whenever they're getting less than 6MP/tic, then this whole thread wouldn't even bloody exist.

Seriously, before Aht Urhgan we had only Refresh, Ballad, /SMN and Auto-Refresh gear - if you were extremely well geared and had one support class you could get 4MP/tic. And you could suit just fine with that if you used your head occasionally and didn't spam Cure V whenever a mob brushed past the tank and did 10 damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Karinya

There's no reason to pit them against each other. DD-heavy zerg parties are what is killing WHM invite rate, not RDM's supposed superiority in the role.

RDM didn't just become the preferred healer as of ToA, they were the preferred healer before it. You are really stuck on things that center around the mechanics of ToA - I'll tell you right now that burn PTs existed before it and the same issues were prevalent then. There wasn't even an EXP bonus back then. Enfeebling was just as irrelevant to those burn parties then as it is now. RDM had the advantage over WHM even not just because of Refresh, but Refresh AND Convert.

And BRDs still had the tremendous invite advantage in those PTS. Rangers had that advantage, too, pre-nerf. WAR picked up where RNG left off pre-ToA.

People complained about RNGs, NINs and BLMs getting faster EXP than all the other jobs, about how unfair it was that no PT would leave Jeuno without one RNG or a BLM in the PT. Now, neither of those hardly gets an invite now, even though they still bring great damage.

People got what they wanted - they're doing what RNGs and BLMs did. They're no longer left out.

And now they bitch about that.

Hate to say it, but RDMs asked for it, too. You guys hopped right on whatever EXP gravy train you would find just like everyone else and dicked your roles for it.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by Feenicks

Am I the only one here who doesn't run out of MP so fast that I need more Refreshes? If people knew how to properly and intelligently conserve their MP without having to rely on eight different jobs spamming Refresh on them and complaining whenever they're getting less than 6MP/tic, then this whole thread wouldn't even bloody exist.

Seriously, before Aht Urhgan we had only Refresh, Ballad, /SMN and Auto-Refresh gear - if you were extremely well geared and had one support class you could get 4MP/tic. And you could suit just fine with that if you used your head occasionally and didn't spam Cure V whenever a mob brushed past the tank and did 10 damage.

Before AU, you also got to rest.

Personally, no, I don't think WHM needs a self-Refresh, and they definitely don't need to steal our place as buffers. RDM cannot get by on Convert and enfeebling alone; heck, the reason why we got Refresh in the first place was because our invite rates sucked without it.

That being said, WHM needs some form of MP advantage beyond Regen spells. RDM has Refresh and Convert, SCH has Light Arts and Strategems, and SMN (who shouldn't even need to be part of this discussion, but people suck) has Auto-Refresh and a gigantic MP pool. I'm of the opinion that the most distinctly White Mage-y thing you could do to make WHM compete on ability to have MP would be to cut down spending through Cure Potency traits at 40+.

As for enabling RDM melee, I personally feel we shouldn't be all up-front all the time like BLU, but we should be set up such that it's an option. In practical terms, it isn't now except in soloing and the most marginal of special situations. The reaction to a RDM stabbing something shouldn't be laughter and a swift kick, it should be a discussion of which they need more, melee benefits or spell accuracy. It should be practical to do at all, not our new role in light of losing a key part of our identity.

Where would a Refresh II fit into this? If anywhere, as a self-only buff gained at 51 that gives 5 MP/tick or the like. Even then, such a spell would more likely be used just to power up backline RDM even further in a way it doesn't need. Therefore, I don't favor new Refresh spells. If anything, we should get some kind of ability to gain MP through meleeing (Aspir Samba would do fine if it weren't for the fact that it only works on some mobs) -- maybe a spell that eats 1 TP/tick and converts it into 3 MP. -- Pteryx

[TheGrandMom]

I agree 100% with everything Karinya has said.

As for melee burns, they were not as prevalant before ToAU. I got leveled 3 rdms to 75 before ToAU and the majority of my exp came from "traditional" exp pts all 3 times.

Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't matter what adjustment is made to any job. The issue is the player base and the attitude of getting the most exp in the least amount of time with as little effort as possible. We have bastardized the job so that we can do things as easy as possible and then get stuck in a role that a percentage don't like because of it. Since changnig the majority of player's attitudes is next to impossible (loldrg....STILL?) just accept the role we play and move on. If SE does an "adjustment" down the road, then we'll see how the player base will pervert that.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

As for melee burns, they were not as prevalant before ToAU. I got leveled 3 rdms to 75 before ToAU and the majority of my exp came from "traditional" exp pts all 3 times.

Prevalence at that time is quite irrelevent, the problems with RDMs existed in those setups, too. Any RDM that got invited to these setups got invited for Refresh, Haste, Convert and invited as a healer only. Doesn't matter how you did it, it was done this way at the time you did it, too. I was a BRD and I took the burn PTs and was a nice guy and took the other ones as well.

When I started having complaints about burn PTs as a BRD, that was kinda when I also realized that if I continued my RDM past 65, I'd never enjoy it. Even the use of Elegy - while helpful - is more of a claim tool than an mob debuff in burn PTs. All these other spells RDM would mean nothing.

Instead of complaining about burn PTs, if you don't like your role in them - DO NOT TAKE BURN PT INVITES. But I seriously doubt many RDMs are that steadfast in resisting an invite that isn't to thier liking when the EXP is fast.

And I'll admit, when you have COR or BRD, unlike RDM, you have a lot more room to be shrewd about how you party. RDMs have competition these days from within thier own class. There's only room for one healer in a burn and its likely going to be a RDM.

Again, as I've said many, many times - if you don't like the PTs you get, then build your own PTs and find like-minded people to party with. Some people DO want SC/MB PTs and WILL go the older zones and fight IT++ to do them. Will you?

[Lmnop]

>.>

Boost WHM or nerf RDM enough, and you can start adding lots of neat and finally useful enfeebles to RDMs.

Currently, giving RDM enfeebles that rival the power of BRD buffs is a bad idea since they work with BRD all the time. But if you took away the capacity for a RDM to main heal at the same time as giving these powerful enfeebles... then they could end up filling a BRD's shoes. So that parties against tougher mobs (in a world where S-E fixes their exp tables) would typically use WHM + RDM or WHM + BRD. And low level hunting would probably still function with RDM + BRD, but you'd need some help on the frontline (PLD or BLU, namely).

I'm not sure any of what I just said is a good idea. I've just always liked the idea of RDM fulfilling BRD's role instead of WHM's.

[Celeal]

IMHO, this may make exp. parties (non-merit) too easy.... We should also consider the option for inviting DNC, /DNC or /SCH to exp. parties too.

[Akashimo]

There is a way out of burn parties.
RDM/DRK and campaign.
Live it.
Love it.
Go emo souleater.