[Akashimo]

I'd rather go the line of Refresh as 41 for whm, 38rdm and Refresh II 61 rdm. Where Refresh cast timers were changed to that of Phalanx, and Refresh II that off the current, before applying fast cast with af hat.

Enspells. Dagger onry. On day of en-element, generally see 18-22 dmg at best.

A tier 2 starting at 60 with a new one every other level to do a set amount based on your dmg, lets say, 50% then add in MAB, weather and day to max it out, even with sword spell gear, to 75% of your hit.

Back to invites if whm were to get Refresh. Simple, add job traits that'll improve that Jack of all trades status. Converse MP, Auto Refresh, Sheild Mastery, Attack Bonus, Double Attack, Tripple Attack, Accuracy Bonus, Defense Bonus. All being add above level 40.

Also, if its not that hard, why not new Job Abilities. Lets say...,

Sword Bash. Requires Sword. Deals damage and stuns target.
Sword Mastery. Requires Sword. Next hit will be considered Magic, and damage dealt will be converted to MP.
Dagger Slash. Requires Dagger. Target receives Amnesia.
Dagger Master. Requires Dagger. Next hit will be considered Magic, and damage dealt will be converted to MP.

Too much? Maybe. But its a thought.

[TheGrandMom]

It doesn't matter what they would do to any job, its not SE thats putting the jobs into the positions they are in, its the players. Everyone wants quick and fast exp and finds the most effcient way to do it even if it means bastardizing a job to achieve it. So while you may think you are "fixing" a job, the player base will adjust to the fix and just ruin another job and we'll be right back here again. It's a never ending ordeal.

[Neomage]

If mages can't get Refresh from a subjob, thats fine. But in their absence we need much better Conserve MP. Without Refresh, Mages are hindered much, much more then Melee are without Haste. A higher Conserve MP would at least put them on the same tier.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Akashimo

I'd rather go the line of Refresh as 41 for whm, 38rdm and Refresh II 61 rdm. Where Refresh cast timers were changed to that of Phalanx, and Refresh II that off the current, before applying fast cast with af hat.

From the sound of that it would basically be the same as it is now with Red Mage having Refresh but given White Mage self Refesh. The goal of this was not to give White Mage Refresh, but to make Red Mage not as heavily restricted to the back line without giving up an essential spell, giving it to White Mage instead.
______________________________

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

It doesn't matter what they would do to any job, its not SE thats putting the jobs into the positions they are in, its the players. Everyone wants quick and fast exp and finds the most effcient way to do it even if it means bastardizing a job to achieve it. So while you may think you are "fixing" a job, the player base will adjust to the fix and just ruin another job and we'll be right back here again. It's a never ending ordeal.

The fact is there are many Red Mages out there that dislike being forced into the back line. Now with White Mage, when is this ever an issue? White Mage has no place in melee and this is an acceptable concept for them.

To put it simple, the idea of Red Mage without Refresh is inconceivable. You could say "no more merit parties, no spot in alliances" but this is not true. Surely if you take away a job's essential ability it becomes overlooked, but Red Mage does have DD capabilities, and SE seems to being pushing to improve that aspect of the job.

[Sevv]

Ok I am gonna get into this because I have skipped the last what 6 red mage melee threads, but hell I will get into this.


On the giving whm refresh I a single target spell:

Congrats you have just made leveling Red Mage until atleast 61, where they are now only stand out for multiple mage parties, even then they now play second fiddle to bard. Taking the current ability and moving into twenty levels later, just takes away so many more invites. Now if you were to even given this to a White Mage, your now limiting Red Mage invites even more. I don't know who would invite a Red Mage over a White Mage if they can cast refresh on themselves. They are better healers and now with even better mp management. The only thing that stands out from a Red Mage is the cool ability convert, which just is not enough to keep the job alive any where how it is now.

On the Red Mage dd invites. Ok do you know how many melee job there are? Good luck picking up invites here, you all over estimate your damage out put. Yes Red Mages can swing a sword or a dagger at a mob, white mages can swing a club at mobs 2. This doesn't mean it is worth the party slot. "But S-E wanted them to be a battle mage", guess what they are you have a decent sword skill. They can DD but it is not efficent to waste the slot by Red Mage DD. If you want to dd, you can solo or make your own party, but that doesn't mean you have to change the job in order to DD.

If you want to try and say you can put out this amazing damage I will be willing to parse yall on my drg, I will even use a love halbred.

[Kafeen]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

If WHM got Refresh, would RDMs be out of a job? No, BAD RDMs would be out of a job. They'd quit because they think Refresh defines thier invites.

Unfortunately it does. Its not the only thing RDM's can do by far but its all most people ever specifically invite a RDM for. WHM's can cure and haste, BLM can nuke better and any RDM that melee's risks being kicked. Few people care about debuffs especially in the TP burn parties, mobs die so fast you barely have time to cast then never mind them actually having some effect. Even when you do debuff there's only really Gravity and Dispel that aren't given to either WHM or BLM. Not that BLM get many invite at the moment anyway...

I have actually been told in a party when I was levelling RDM that all I needed was 2 macros. 1 for refresh and 1 for haste and the other members would handle everything else. Luckily those people died a few minutes later when they pulled 2 mobs and wouldn't disengage on one in order for me to sleep it, they said they were going to solo it while the rest of the party fought the other one. It was an IT mob so they died pretty quick.

[Yellow Mage]

As BBQ said on the Job Wishlist thread:

It wouldn't put Red Mage out of a job. Just the bad ones.

You completely forget that the main selling point of Red Mages in FFXI is their Enfeebling. All the other stuff about Curing, Hasting, DDing: all stuff to be done on the side at the appropriate times.

As such, Red Mage has two primary problems later in the game: resists, and busy-ness. This thread's whole idea is to reduce the Red Mage's busy-ness, so they can get back to focusing on Enfeebling and other stuff, as needed.

The only problem that's left is the resisting issue. In the Job Wishlist thread, it was proposed to give Red Mage traits of Magic Accuracy Bonus to help make their Enfeebles more worthwhile later on in the game, much in the same way Black Mage get Magic Attack Bonus early on to give them more impressive nukes. I'm personally a proponent of giving Enspells another use: amplifying spells with your Enspell'd weapon in a manner similar to the Elemental Staves, thus serving a double purpose of reducing resists at any time to a Red Mage's whim, and reducing dependancy on those wretched Elemental Staves, thus allowing a Red Mage to keep their Sword/Dagger out at all times.

To reduce a Red Mage's busy-ness, I also proposed the legendary Red Mage Ability Doublecast. Red Mage has a lot of spells on its plate to cast as is, so occasionally insta-casting every other spell will definitely help a lot. This is especially useful considering S-E is going to add even more spells in an attempt to get Red Mages to go on the frontline (at least occasionally).

And, speaking of which, didn't you get the memo? S-E still intends for Red Mages to frontline (at least sometimes), and right now, their looking at giving us more spells to do that! While i'm not exactly a fan of the "even more spells to cast" approach, it still shows that S-E may still yet have an idea with what they're doing with their long-neglected job.

[Akashimo]

Yellow mage obtains a YM's Relic Tabard +3.
YM wins the thread with that post imo.

[Sevv]

In before the

/Ma "Barspell" <me>
/wait 1
/Ma "Long Spell cast" <t>

To break double cast

[Yellow Mage]

Your point? That would just be using Doublecast intelligently. I don't see anything broken about it. Especially since it has no effect on recasts.

All it can really do is give Red Mages with a lot on their plate an occasional break.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Going back over the thread:

If you're going to give the ability to melee uninterrupted by spellcasting, one and only one job deserves such an ability- Paladin. Damage is part of the tanking equation, part of how one keeps hate, spells staggering weapon delay gets in the way a bit.

And if one RDM utters the word "Refreshga" I will strangle them >:O

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

And if one RDM utters the word "Refreshga" I will strangle them >:O

I will actually join you in the strangling.

[Aksannyi]

As someone who has both RDM and WHM to 75 I disagree with the OP. I do not want my own Refresh on WHM, and I do not want to get a secondary Refresh II spell on RDM. I happen to like things the way they are.

[Neomage]

That does bring up a new problem though: SCH/RDM...

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Aksannyi

As someone who has both RDM and WHM to 75 I disagree with the OP. I do not want my own Refresh on WHM, and I do not want to get a secondary Refresh II spell on RDM. I happen to like things the way they are.

Secondary Refresh on WHM...but point taken.