[Icemage]

Originally Posted by arkaine23

Regarding /SCH: RDM/SCH is a better nuker than RDM/BLM. Better mp efficiency, lower recasts on stuff like Bind/Gravity, much more accurate nuking to the point of downgrading skill gear for more INT/MAB. Reliable Drain/Aspir. You can stay in dark Arts most of the time if solo, and the reverse if in a party. The only real downsides are the lack of Sleepga, ES, and Warp/Escape.... really is just ES and Sleepga. Arts > Conserve MP by itself to say nothing of dropping a tier 3 nuke every 4 minutes for ~60mp. The thing about /SCH is being in a situation where you can stay in one Art 90+% of the time and don't need to flip back and forth a lot.

As a pure nuker, perhaps. Depends on what you're fighting, though. With enough magic accuracy, assuming you're not nuking something that's IT+ to you, you can get very consistent nukes just with an HQ staff, AF1 hat, and an Elemental Torque. Plus /BLM gives Magic Attack II bonus trait (which, unlike MATK+ level I, does stack, as I recall), which isn't something any nuker should be sneezing at.

Against IT or higher enemies, I agree /SCH is a somewhat better nuking sub as long as you don't need the other utility spells due to less expensive and more consistent nukes, but I find that Elemental Seal is very useful in most such situations, which counterbalances the effectiveness of greater efficiency.

General thread topic: RDM has more roles than ever these days. Sure 97% of the time we're expected to play just one of them. But we can tank HNM. We can tank xp in some level ranges. We can play massive support via /BRD /COR or /DNC. We can melee DD in certain level ranges when free of our healing role. We can magical DD with /SCH. We can enable an alliance to zerg HNMs. And we can mix and blend in between these roles fairly well, always having our enfeebling, light nuking, light melee, curing, enhancing covered from main-job spells/abilities.

If you don't like being a dedicated healer/haster/refresher with enfeebles you can build your own parties, ask party setups and be selective before joining a pickup, or go solo. I capped merits and xp for RDM so you can bet that I never play it as a merit party healer.

Yep. There's tons of opportunities to do things other than just be an Energizer Bunny in a merit party. What most of the objections come in is that the idea is being held forth that those other roles are in some way superior to the Energizer Bunny Pink Mage role in merit or XP situations. It's just not true unless you're beating on wimpy Colibri (which don't give that much XP at level 75 anyway)... and in most cases, probably not even then.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Icemage

As a pure nuker, perhaps. Depends on what you're fighting, though. With enough magic accuracy, assuming you're not nuking something that's IT+ to you, you can get very consistent nukes just with an HQ staff, AF1 hat, and an Elemental Torque. Plus /BLM gives Magic Attack II bonus trait (which, unlike MATK+ level I, does stack, as I recall), which isn't something any nuker should be sneezing at.

I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.

Don't have HQ staves, but I did have Elemental Torque and artifact hat when I had that SC+MB party on Trolls. Magic accuracy was bad when not casting on MB, and even on MB I noticed some resists. (Makes me wonder what those RDM/DNC advocates would do, hanging on to sword and dagger for TP... Guess they won't nuke.) Don't quite remember what they con as...

Originally Posted by Icemage

Against IT or higher enemies, I agree /SCH is a somewhat better nuking sub as long as you don't need the other utility spells due to less expensive and more consistent nukes, but I find that Elemental Seal is very useful in most such situations, which counterbalances the effectiveness of greater efficiency.

From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.

Originally Posted by Icemage

Yep. There's tons of opportunities to do things other than just be an Energizer Bunny in a merit party. What most of the objections come in is that the idea is being held forth that those other roles are in some way superior to the Energizer Bunny Pink Mage role in merit or XP situations. It's just not true unless you're beating on wimpy Colibri (which don't give that much XP at level 75 anyway)... and in most cases, probably not even then.

Oh, I dunno... It's quite possible to configure a party that makes RDM/something-else more useful than RDM/WHM. BUT... The real downer for those who try to do that is that they discover it's not as good for exp/hour, compared to the now standard BRD + RDM/WHM + "tank" + DD x3.

It's not RDM/something-else is wrong or inefficient per se; it's just that where that fits, the configuration for the entire party is less than optimal for exp/merit points.

Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.

I seem to recall it doing so, but that was a long time ago. Should be easy enough to test, in any case.

Don't have HQ staves, but I did have Elemental Torque and artifact hat when I had that SC+MB party on Trolls. Magic accuracy was bad when not casting on MB, and even on MB I noticed some resists. (Makes me wonder what those RDM/DNC advocates would do, hanging on to sword and dagger for TP... Guess they won't nuke.) Don't quite remember what they con as...

Trolls are all high VT to IT+ if we're talking about the ones on Mount Zhayolm near the ramparts where Cerberus spawns.

From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?

Sleepga, Warp, Tractor and Escape. Rarely necessary, but all three are nice to have in various situations. There's a level of safety involved with /BLM that's missing from /SCH. When I use RDM/SCH, it feels like a dysfunctional glass cannon - not as fragile as BLM/SCH, but eerily similar nonetheless and far weaker in the damage department. And there's nothing like Elemental Seal + Bind/Gravity/Sleep II as a get-out-of-jail free card.

/SCH makes RDM a somewhat less mediocre nuker than usual, but let's not kid ourselves; it's still mediocre when your best available nuke is Thunder III. Chances are, if you're not by yourself, you're going to be better off supporting what other party members are doing rather than trying to rely on the weakest RDM attributes.

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.

In that situation, yes, RDM/SCH would be decent.

Oh, I dunno... It's quite possible to configure a party that makes RDM/something-else more useful than RDM/WHM. BUT... The real downer for those who try to do that is that they discover it's not as good for exp/hour, compared to the now standard BRD + RDM/WHM + "tank" + DD x3.

It's not RDM/something-else is wrong or inefficient per se; it's just that where that fits, the configuration for the entire party is less than optimal for exp/merit points.

Exactly. Really, if Colibri didn't exist, this conversation would be dead before it began; there's precious few enemy types I'd prefer to get up close and personal to if I had any choice in the matter.

Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b

Agreed, for XP parties, you can make all sorts of things "work" with enough effort. I've done some bizarre setups in the past, and once in a while they work out (NIN NIN NIN RDM BLM BRD is a particular fond memory), and there's the few times I anchored a manaburn party as RDM/BRD + 5 BLMs which was amusing, if migraine-inducingly difficult.

But there's just no denying that it's easier and less stressful to make a functioning party with the job combinations that work best for each circumstance. Sure, I can probably find a use for a WHM/NIN, or a RDM/SCH, but making up for the shortfalls of unusual combinations puts more pressure on the other party positions to perform above expectations.


Icemage

[Gobo]

Job traits of the same type don't stack. PLD/WAR doesn't get the Defense of 2 Defense Bonus I, SMN/PLD doesn't get 2 Auto-Refresh, DNC/NIN doesn't get the TP reduction 2 Subtle Blow I/II and so on.

And we are forgetting the most important part of /SCH. Resist Silence!...no wait /BRD does it better with Resist Silence II. Silly me. XD

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.

That's correct, repeated job traits do not stack, though /BLM might eek out stronger nukes w/ higher base INT.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.

Yeah, this is right on, I guess the reason I'm all for /SCH is due to doing so many low-man fights, especially kited ones, where that extra 1/tick of Bio actually makes a big difference. I also can't count the number of times a Nyzul Isle run has come down to Adamantoise with 3 minutes left, where the key to winning in enough time to not lose the drop is me Chainspell nuking him down, and /SCH would make a huge difference there.

I wouldn't think of taking it into Dynamis or Sky, where Sleepga or Stun are so useful, but against HNMs that are immune to both(most ground kings), or places where you don't really need stun and don't run into large links(Limbus, Nyzul Assault) I think it'd still be super useful, there's nothing really in any of these places that you can land with Elemental Seal that you can't land without, so that wouldn't really be a factor either.

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b

Fantastic point, lol. About 3 weeks ago I had a LS party that averaged 12k/hr(that's official # from EXPWatch plug-in), that consisted of a 75BLU/WAR tank, a 70 BLU/THF, a 71 DNC/NIN, a 68 RDM/WHM, a 75 DRK, and me on COR. That setup is absoltuely asinine, but due to having good players it worked great(the BLU tank was getting something like 17mp/tick back between Refresh, Evoker's, Sanction/AutoRef, Ethereal, and Aspir Samba).

I personally just take whatever role I get invited for, unless the party is still forming, then I just choose my setup depending on what's LFG. I've played RDM/WHM healer, RDM/DRK puller, BRD/NIN buffer/puller, and COR/RNG buffer/DD, all in the same party depending on what we could find to make the best setup possible.

[Gobo]

I remembered something from when I first got SCH to 37 and goofed around with RDM/SCH. If you cap on Fast Cast through Gear (AF hat, Relic body, Loquac earring) the -10% spell casting from Arts will have no effect on spell casting speed. With or without Arts you cast at ~43%.

[Callisto]

Yeah I figured there'd be a hard cap somewhere. At the same time, I have all of those pieces so Fast Cast isn't really anything I'm looking for, however 10% MP reduction on nukes is a whole other story.

Also, did you see if the recast timer reduction from Arts still took effect?

[Gobo]

The recast reduction still takes effect :D

Wlk. Chapeau+1 +Duelist's Tabard+Loquac Earring w/out Light Arts=19 second recast on Stoneskin, 13 second recast on Haste



All that+Light Arts=17 second recast on Stoneskin, 11 second recast on Haste

[Yellow Mage]

Where does Casting Time reduction cap?

Also, this has been bugging me for a while:

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.

Originally Posted by Mhurron

I think you'll find Red Mage is indeed a Mage.

You would say the same for Blue Mage, then? They should get a Staff skill, then?

Originally Posted by Mhurron

You mean as long as being a Main healer isn't what's needed.

[Callisto]

I want to say it's at about 42-43%. I've been meaning to test it with Reraise for months and I never remember to when I'm on /WHM. I'll try it tonight hopefully. If what Gobo says is correct, it's whatever you can get from the 3 FastCast+ pieces and 74+ RDM. I was always unsure whether that was the hard cap, or just the most possible due to the limitations set by available gear, but so far it appears to be the hard cap.

[arkaine23]

Recast cap is 50%. Lol full-time Celerity/Alacrity.

[Yellow Mage]

I was asking about Casting Time. Does reduction to Casting Time have a hard cap, sans Chainspell?

[arkaine23]

Its difficult to tell since you're eyeballing the casting bar. Game lag can throw all your testing out the window.

Prior to /SCH, the fastest casting we could possibly test was ~43%. Telling the difference between 53% and 50% (if it was to cap at 50% like recast does) is not going to be easy.

[Callisto]

It seems different for different spells for me even, it is pretty hard to test. My longer spells look like they go off at 43% like they should, Stoneskin seems to go off at 39%. Although, I would suppose on something like Raise it would be easy to tell if Light Arts is making a difference in casting time. Mebbe I'll change my g/f to a lvl 1 job and kill her off a few times this weekend lol.