Optimal Dual Wield(Paging Armando to the RDM forums)

[Callisto]

Let me begin by saying I luuuuuuuvvv me some swords. Can't get enough of them. I currently use ESword + Joyeuse as my dual wield setup, but I've been looking at a couple of others, trying to determine what would be best. Currently I'm looking at either getting a Mensur Epee to do Mensur(main)+ESword(off) or Guespiere to do ESword(main)+Guespiere(off).

I've read from a few sources that offhanding a Joyeuse actually can lower your DoT. I looked over most of the dual wield discussions in these forums before, especially the Ridill + Joyeuse one(where it became apparent that Armando is the resident Dualwieldologist here). I understand the basic workings, but unfortunately my math skills have gotten pretty rusty, and I'm not sure exactly how to compute which would be better. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Here's what I'd be working with:

Enhancing Sword - D40 DLY240 DPS10.00 Enspells +5 Latent Acc +8 Atk +16
Joyeuse - D35 DLY224 DPS9.38 Occasionally attacks twice
Guespiere - D38 DLY226 DPS10.09 STR+1 MND+6 Addt'l Effect Weakens Defense
Mensur Epee - D39 DLY224 DPS10.45 Hidden Effect D41-47 depending on party size

DW2 from sub, but no Suppa(went with Abyssal), so DLY -20% I believe.

I know that I'd like to keep using the ESword in one slot, as the Acc/Atk boost are needed, and my enspells are at currently at 27/swing + 10-35% from weather/day boosts, and if using something other than the Epee as my 2nd I'd want the higher damage as my WS slot. These all have approximately the same delay, so I guess part of the choice lies in the added stats, if the boosts of the other two make them worth giving up the double attack effect of the Joyeuse.

Is there any truth to the notion that offhanding a Joyeuse will actually lower DoT/TP gain compared to using another sword with similar delay, but without the attack twice effect? I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing b/c it doesn't seem like that makes sense to me. If anyone can help toss some math in here to help me out I'd appreciate it.

[WishMaster3K]

That'd be interesting to me as well. But there aren't many swords like the Joyeuse, and the DA procs 50% of the time, so I suppose the prospects of being able to get 15% TP an attack round out weight DoT to an extent, as is the nature of RDM Melee.

But even when I go RDM/NIN, I still use Joyeuse/Genbu, because I don't have a sword worthy of even being next to the Joy Toy.

[Armando]

(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false. Joyeuse's 50% proc rate means its "true" DMG/sec ratio is 14.06, which is massive and beats out every other sword on that list. Obviously Enhancing Sword has other stats, but Mensur is just damage and Joyeuse beats it, and I have no clue about Guspiere's Defense Down but at the very least Joyeuse beats its damage by a long shot as well. Operating at 125% of "normal" TP gain furthers the gap even more. Then there's the fact that you also get more Enspells in.

Unless Guspiere has a Defense Down effect that's huge in potency and has a decent enough proc rate that it'll happen before the mob's dead, there only thing that can replace Joyeuse is Justice Sword (but then I'd just tell you to use both.) I think the real question is: should you use Enhancing Sword over Mensur Epee? If you tell me your stats (all of them), and what you expect to be fighting (be specific, level difference makes a tremendous difference and obviously Crabs have a 38+ Defense advantage over most other mobs) I can take a stab at running some numbers. I will say this, though - Mensur Epee does have a lot more DMG/sec going for it than Enhancing Sword.

[Sevv]

That'd be interesting to me as well. But there aren't many swords like the Joyeuse, and the DA procs 50% of the time, so I suppose the prospects of being able to get 15% TP an attack round out weight.

100% drop but need sea. Jailer weapons "run" on a 75%-80% proc rate, I believe. Only takes ammo slot to work this properly.

(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false.

I think they worded it wrong, remember a thread here in which someone said you lowered joyeuse effectiveness when you had another weapon off-hand v holding it alone, thats where the idea came from I believe.

[Armando]

I've read Justice Sword is a 50% proc rate just like Joyeuse. Difference is you can still do normal double attacks off of Justice Sword's extra hits.

I think they worded it wrong, remember a thread here in which someone said you lowered joyeuse effectiveness when you had another weapon off-hand v holding it alone, thats where the idea came from I believe.

Ah, you're right, that's probably it. To clarify, if you dual wield Joyeuse you end up getting 25% extra TP instead of 50%. It's not so much that you're lowering Joyeuse's effectiveness, just your overall TP gain speed. But even so, you're getting in more hits due to the Dual Wield delay reduction, and each Vorpal will be stronger due to higher DMG on the main hand and having an extra hit in there. Dual wielding it can still be worth it.

[WishMaster3K]

Yeah it was another RDM thread about subbing something to the Joyeuse (Daggers) for Enspells.

[Sevv]

it seemed alot higher then 50% every time i party with pld/nin from my ls, most jailers were rumored to be about 75%ish and no way I am about to test it lol.

[Callisto]

(Don't mean to sound like I'm scolding, but) I don't know where you heard the idea that Joyeuse can lower your DMG/sec and TP/time, but without running any numbers I can tell you it's false.

It was on KI or Alla or other forums that are usually BS. Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it sounded kind of suspect, and I wasn't sure exactly how much Joyeuse did.

As far as specific mobs, I actually rarely use /NIN, but the two instances I use it for the most is farming Alky/Pallas trigs against the EP Jotunns and the NMs themselves, and for Hurricane Wyverns in IC when helping to farm Crown items. I believe Jotunns pop around 67 and Wyverns around 77.

If the stat calculator I used is correct, as RDM/NIN line while wearing my current WS/DD set is:

STR: 70+20=90
DEX: 63+7=70
VIT: 65+5=70
AGI: 54+0=54
INT: 62+3=65
MND: 69+7=76
CHR: 61+0=61

Atk +44(not sure my base Atk as /NIN, 252 Sword Skill)
Acc +21

My Enspells do a base of 27 in this setup, not sure how hard it is to calculate that into this equation when determining DoT of ESword vs. Mensur. I'd probably assume a base D of 45 on the Epee, as I usually would be duo with someone else.

Anyways, if you can help me figure out some math as to which would be better, that'd be pretty sweet. At any rate you did just save me some cash on a Guespiere, I appreciate it.

Add: Almost forgot, if it wasn't obvious I'd be using predominantly Savage, usually at 100%, with a Thunder Gorget.

[Callisto]

But even so, you're getting in more hits due to the Dual Wield delay reduction, and each Vorpal will be stronger due to higher DMG on the main hand and having an extra hit in there. Dual wielding it can still be worth it.

Now they just need to fix this crap of RDM not having Vorpal on their own; ; Still looking into the Vorpal Sword to see if the rumors are true, I don't know of anyone who has confirmed it yet.

[Armando]

Ok. Any food?

[Callisto]

Usually not, Sweet Rice Cakes if I do though. Pretty sure they wouldn't affect this calculation though.

MP+17
VIT+2
INT+3
MND+1
hHP+2
hMP+2
Eva+5
Resist Silence

Side note: Sweet Rice Cakes are this shiz for RDM/NIN

[Taskmage]

Well, the reason is Joyeuse does 50% more damage and gains 50% more TP than another weapon with the same damage and delay. If you dual wield it with a weapon that doesn't have a double attack effect, you're diluting that effect since it only procs on half your attacks.

We did this in another thread in the context of TP, comparing single wield Joyeuse to dual wielding it with the next fastest TP gainer, Hornetneedle. Here's the breakdown.

Joyeuse swings 1.5 times per attack round on average. So for each attack round it returns an average of 9 tp. With a delay of 224, Joyeuse gets 16.07 attack rounds per minute. Multiplying the two together gets us 144.64 tp/min average.

Hornetneedle has a delay of 150. The combined delay for the two is 374, reduced by 15% from dual wield II gives us 317.9 delay, half of which (158.95) is used to calculate how much tp each hit gives, correct? The Studio Gobli TP formula for delay less than 180 is 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5] / 180, so punching our value in there ... *click click click* Hmm 4.82 per hit, nearly the same as Hornetneedle alone. Duel wielding you'll attack 2.5 times on average so that's 12.05 tp average per round, and 11.32 rounds per minute gives us ... 136.45 tp/min average.

I'm not a dualwieldologist, so my numbers are probably a little off, but single wield comes out ahead. That's why I always prefer to mainhand Marial Anelace over Joyeuse if I'm dual wielding. The TP gain is still slower but the Martial+Joy setup is only racing to 200% instead of 300%. Assuming 100% hit rate and exactly 50% proc rate, single wield Joyeuse hits 300 TP in about 2 minutes and 4 seconds. Assuming the same things, Martial+Joy reaches 200% tp in 1 minute and 42 seconds for the same strength SB or SW.

math

Combined delay = 224 + 240 = 464
DW modified delay = 464 * 0.85 = 394.4
TP per hit = 5.0 + [((394.4 / 2) - 180) * 1.5] / 180 = 5.14
TP per round = 5.14 * 2.5 = 12.85
rounds per minute = 3600 / 394.4 = 9.13
TP per minute = 9.13 * 12.85 = 117.32
200 TP / 117.32 TP/min = 1.7 minutes

Looking at just enspell damage, if your enspell does 27 with E Sword, then it will do 22 on Joyeuse, but consider that a double attack means enspell fires 2 times for 44 damage total on the round. On average a round with Joyeuse will deal about 33 enspell damage for you.

Just for fun, enspell damage per minute with ESword, Joy, E+Joy, and Hornetneedle+Joy:
ESword : 15 attacks/minute * 27 damage/attack = 405 damage/minute
Joyeuse : ~24.1 attacks/minute * 22 damage/attack = 530 damage/minute
Hornet+Joy : ~28.3 attacks/minute * 22 damage/attack = 622.8 damage/minute
ESword+Joy : ~9.13 rounds/minute * (33 damage/round + 27 damage/round) = 547.7 damage/minute

Anyway, I don't see why you would ever offhand something other than Joyeuse. To maximize WSes, Martial Anelace seems like the clear winner to me. Whether ESword or Mensur fares better for normal melee hits in the mainhand is a much more complicated question as Armando alluded to, but the latent on ESword seems very attractive to me. As a guesstimate I would say that ESword would come out ahead over Mensur, unless you're solo fighting mobs far enough below your level that there's no need to be optimal.

[Armando]

Sadly I don't have much time next 'til my next class, so I'll have to run the numbers later. Check back in 5 hours lol.

[Zempten]

How often is the stone consumed? Like 1 stack an hr? or 1 stack/30mins? I mean an estimate

[Callisto]

I believe that 1 stone is consumed every time the effect procs. My friend uses Faith Bagknockers or w/e, generally in a 60 minute limbus he runs through about 2.5 bags of stones(stacks of 99). It's not bad considering practically any 1 sea mob drop will get you a pouch, and how easy they are to farm, you can easily get 5-10 pouches in an hour of hpemde farming.