[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

But how often do you see a COR running about? Moreover, how beneficial would is it to use the SAM roll as opposed to another?

How often do you see a WAR use Armor Break? its 25% DEF down on the mob if unresisted, doing every melee around more good than a somone plunking Acid Bolts (12%) or an Angon (20%) into the mob.

I mean, there are WARs everywhere, yet they never do it. And you let 'em.

So with an abundance of a job that can do a world of good, but doesn't, why fault a job for lack of presence? Its not the jobs fault people are too cheap to play it or unknowledgeable about it. The skill is there, why steal it from another job when its something RDM doesn't even need anyway? Haste and Refresh eat enough MP, thanks.

And seriously, its not like RDM and BRD have a bustling populace and are paragons of availablity, they're just older jobs. Were it not for ToA, i doubt anyone would know what March or Elegy were (Hell, I met a 75 BRD that argued that March wasn't haste, there are still people that braindead). And a non-AFK RDM is about as common as a COR. At least on my server, anyway.

And Regain as a self spell would be a total waste. It was dumb enough the first tier of Phalnax was self-only. The self Barspells were redundant, it could have just been the bar-ra spells, but w/e.

As for two-hand weapon users, I think they need more buffs to thier jobs to resolve that. SE still hasn't succeeded in bringing them up to par with jobs like WAR, MNK and RNG. The introduction of a spell with the hopes to allieviate that issue would backfire right away, we'd be driven even deeper into WAR/NIN than before.

I think the reason COR never got a Haste was, in fact, Samurai Roll. If we had both that would have been rather broken.

[BurningPanther]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Its not the jobs fault people are too cheap to play it or unknowledgeable about it.

Nah, the fact that people just don't care to play the job is the reason. It could be the most skilled and useful job on the planet, doesn't change the fact that not many wanna play it. So long as there are a million WARs out there, there's the potential to badger them for armor break, while I could request Samurai's Roll from a COR successfully, it doesn't help if I can't find any of the 10 total on the server.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

The skill is there, why steal it from another job when its something RDM doesn't even need anyway? Haste and Refresh eat enough MP, thanks.

So, that's what this comes down to, worries of your thunder being stolen. Like BRD totally stole RDM's with Ballad? It could do nothing but help a party if both RDM and COR were invited, and the proposed Regain stacked with Samurai's roll. It still doesn't answer the question to the priority of said rolls. If a party want something like the THF or DRK rolls, then a Regain cast could fill in where the COR can't.
And keeping priorities in mind, a Regain spell wouldn't have to cost as much as Refresh or Haste, and like either, it doesn't have to be cast every single time. A smart RDM knows to prioritize his spells, if he burns himself out trying to fire them all off on everyone, he only has himself to blame.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

And seriously, its not like RDM and BRD have a bustling populace and are paragons of availablity, they're just older jobs. Were it not for ToA, i doubt anyone would know what March or Elegy were (Hell, I met a 75 BRD that argued that March wasn't haste, there are still people that braindead). And a non-AFK RDM is about as common as a COR. At least on my server, anyway.

Yes, BRD and RDM were rare at on time as rare as COR is now, and one day maybe it will be as abundant as the former jobs, but no point in trying to cross a bridge until you've come to it.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

And Regain as a self spell would be a total waste. It was dumb enough the first tier of Phalnax was self-only. The self Barspells were redundant, it could have just been the bar-ra spells, but w/e.

Potentially a waste, but it would curb the backline-placing you suggested would be a problem. The idea would have been to introduce it as an answer to those who who use TP accrual rate as an argument against RDM frontlining, making it self only would give the job an edge in that respect, as well is stay in keeping with the independent flavor of the job, which is the meaning behind the self-only Bar-spells and Phalanx.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

So, that's what this comes down to, worries of your thunder being stolen. Like BRD totally stole RDM's with Ballad?

I hate to burst your bubble, but BRD had Ballad before RDM had Refresh.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

It could do nothing but help a party if both RDM and COR were invited, and the proposed Regain stacked with Samurai's roll. It still doesn't answer the question to the priority of said rolls. If a party want something like the THF or DRK rolls, then a Regain cast could fill in where the COR can't.
And keeping priorities in mind, a Regain spell wouldn't have to cost as much as Refresh or Haste, and like either, it doesn't have to be cast every single time. A smart RDM knows to prioritize his spells, if he burns himself out trying to fire them all off on everyone, he only has himself to blame.

I hate to break it to you, but Haste does have to be cast every time. It's not like Refresh, where there's a maximum MP total that can be hit (and is easily observed to boot) and you'll be forgiven for not casting it on someone at 90%. Haste has too many benefits for melees and especially tanks, including increased TP accumulation, for you to get away with not recasting it at your earliest opportunity -- or sooner. I've suffered from a lot more cries of "{Haste} {please}" than "{Refresh} {please}". Whining about Regain would be even more brutal.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Potentially a waste, but it would curb the backline-placing you suggested would be a problem. The idea would have been to introduce it as an answer to those who who use TP accrual rate as an argument against RDM frontlining, making it self only would give the job an edge in that respect, as well is stay in keeping with the independent flavor of the job, which is the meaning behind the self-only Bar-spells and Phalanx.

I think the main argument against RDM meleeing isn't that RDM doesn't gain TP fast enough, but that RDM attacks are too weak to be worth making the mob gain TP faster, and unlike BLU they don't have a good enough reason to accumulate TP for themselves or keep their sword skill capped. Thus, Subtle Blow would be a better solution to that. As for the "but you can get Subtle Blow from subjobs!" argument, yes, you can -- but they're not XP subjobs. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

Thus, Subtle Blow would be a better solution to that. As for the "but you can get Subtle Blow from subjobs!" argument, yes, you can -- but they're not XP subjobs. -- Pteryx

Nevertheless, they're there.

We have two jobs plus gear that adds Subtle Blow, if melee is the desire, its more gear to lug around, but its still there.

There's a list of Subtle blow gear on this page, RDM can use a bit of it. Raja's Ring, Bushido cape, oh and the whole Paluwhan set.

At any rate, I think before RDM is given any more stuff, I'd like to see them gain ground back on enfeebling. SE can make enfeebling relevant again by upping the difficulty of monsters a bit, ToA mobs are so weak enfeebling serves no real purpose. This would go a long way in helping RDM get its written-in role in this game (In addition to getting Refresh after BRD, the A+ in enfeebling also was a revision made pre-Zilart).

And making enfeebling more relevant would push WHM back to the forefront as a healer rather than RDM being made the bitch healer. This doesn't address RDM's Haste and Refresh obligations, though, before they could move closer to a melee role, they'd need less backline obligations.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

This is one of those things I've changed my mind on, mostly for the same things you mentioned. The last thing RDM needs is more incentive to play "pink mage." The Regen used to be ours, and, in my personal and humble opinion, I'd merrily trade Cures 3 and 4 for Regen 2 and 3. Pulls us a little further from the main-healing whore role, without losing out on the ability to back up comrades. Obviously, I'm not saying WHMs should lose Regen, I think they should keep it and the potency merits. Regens 2 and 3 could be powerful enough in our hands without it.

You realize that this would make us worse healers than SMN/WHMs and even PLDs, right? That's way too extreme, and would probably get us ejected from parties entirely -- and leave us too terrible at healing to be able to make up for it by soloing anymore. What really needs to be done is to make WHM more efficient at healing than us without stepping on our Refreshing toes, not to overwhelmingly nerf us. Improving the higher Regens to make them longer-lasting and quicker-casting would help make them far more attractive as healers. I have lots of other ideas in that regard, but that's one example.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

I wouldn't mind something like this, perhaps give us an edge every five or so minutes. It wouldn't make us too popular in TP burns, however, seeing as how only one person would get the effect.

I seriously doubt that if they added Might, it would have a five-minute recast timer...

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

In more balanced parties, it might do well in assisting a defined tank in keeping hate.

...but this is a good argument to have it be castable on others, but balance the duration and recast timer such that only one person can have it active at a time, much as currently a WHM can only keep Regen II going on two people at once IIRC.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Those staves are as much a curse as a blessing. I don't think we need staff skill to make them useful, but rather an alternative to free us from the staves.

I agree that this would be preferable.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Our Elemental skill is fine and dandy, we obviously suck compared to a BLM, but then, we're supposed to. How is improved Elemental skill supposed to improve our Enfeebles?

And yet we don't suck compared to a WHM for healing, and making us suck at that, instead of making us not preferable for that, would make our actual usefulness as mages a little too narrow. As it is, I find it a little odd that we get nukes that we rarely have any opportunity to use and that suck just a bit too much if we do bother casting them. Giving us a B- in Elemental magic would make us not quite as sucky at this while still leaving us sufficiently far behind BLMs in this regard due to the skill still being far worse and our nukes still topping out at tier III with no -agas. As for how it would help us enfeeble, note that I specifically said the elemental enfeebles -- which is to say, Burn, Frost, Choke, Rasp, Shock, and Drown, which work off of Elemental skill and can be subbed.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

I said Counter, but it's a touch more complicated. The idea would be for Counter to proc on a parry, which would hinge on improved Parrying skill(as mentioned above), the textbook definition of a riposte, a fencing maneuver. I don't see why it would be any less worthwhile than improved DEX or Parrying on RDM. My pipe dream is to see RDM melee improved, the introduction of combat and fencing-oriented traits and abilities would be a step in that direction.

The thing is that to perform ripostes, we'd have to have hate, which should only be the case when we're soloing. It seems like a good deal of effort to ask them to go to when there are so many other things they could do instead that would be less work or would have partying benefits that could help us melee.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Not even close to what I was suggesting. Elemental seal enhances the MAcc of the next spell. What I was suggesting it more along the lines or Divine seal or Convergence, improving the potency of the next spell. Un-limit it to Enfeebling and put it under level 37 to allow jobs like BLM to benefit from it. And I loathe the idea of an AOE JA, it's practically asking us to stay backline only, or worse, replacing WHMs.

Ahh, I see. That could be a worthwhile seal, but it also has the risk of being a touch overpowerful...

Originally Posted by Pteryx

* If RDM were to get a seal, it should be Loquacious Seal, which knocks 20% off of the casting time of the next spell cast and 10% off of the recast timer. For many spells this would not be worth it, but if applied carefully it could be helpful for, for instance, catching up on a lagging Refresh or Haste cycle, or making that emergency Escape go off quicker. It should be as easily subbable as the other seals, too; this would make RDM a bit more attractive as a subjob.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Why make a JA? It's the same as the addition of extra Fast Cast traits.

No, not at all. Fast Cast applies to every spell we cast and is a relatively small boost. Loquacious Seal, by contrast, would be a big speed boost up to once every ten minutes. It would give us an extra strategic option -- a small one, but sometimes it's the little things that count.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Yeah, BLM wouldn't have any use for a Light potency, but something like that could be given to WHM.

In a way they already have it -- Banish merits.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

I dunno about broken, and I can't understand why anyone would object. I was thinking along the lines of a parallel to Regen potency merits. If Refresh potency fell under group two rules, you could only merit it three times, for a max of 6MP/tic. Almost 40 free MP. Given the effort required to obtain the merits, it doesn't seem like such a bad deal. A hell of a lot better than the ambiguous usefulness of Blind or Paralyze 2.

I still say it would be too much better, overwhelmingly so. Maxing out Refresh under this system would not only double its output, but would double the speed at which Refresh gives MP back, which means people could cast more spells sooner effortlessly, which would be a huge swing in game balance. Refresh merits would be much, much more powerful than any other merits in the entire game. MP is much more valuable than HP; through healing spells, MP converts to HP at a very favorable ratio, after all.

A modest improvement to duration, however, would improve the return on investment from Refresh without changing the speed at which it accumulates, and thus the speed at which people would cast spells. As the current duration is one game hour, adding five game minutes to the duration per merit would add up to a total of 25% more MP over time -- the same as just one of your Refresh merits, without the side-effects.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Maybe, certainly would make us popular for more than Refresh. Again, just another concept for what could have been a Group 2 merit option. Instead of Haste, maybe small merits for Paralyze, Blind, or Slow potency.

News flash: we're already popular for Haste. Unless they introduce a Time Mage class, I doubt this will change.

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

Mostly in response to the proposals thrown around for a Poison 3. Poison 2 caps at 10HP/tic, pretty easy to obtain, and really, isn't that terribly high. I'm simply proposing an improvement to the potency to make it a little more worthwhile.

You realize that at 10 HP/tick, it's comparable to Bio III and Dia III, right? Just without an att/def down effect. -- Pteryx

[Malacite]

WAR is a 2 hander. The problem is Great Axe really really blows for EXP by end game (Raging Rush really shouldn't be so damn weak compared to Rampage)


Full Break could stand to get a boost too. Make it -25% to all the stats it hits instead of 12.5 and there would probably be a nice influx of GAX. Maybe a critical hit clause to Raging Rush? (and Penta Thrust while I'm at it)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think to move RDM to the frontlines and make them relevant there. some things need to be added and taken away at the same time.

Give RDM access to swords that have similar effects to the 51 staves, first and formost, then give them armor with Ice Spike effects and take thier respective Enspells and Spike Spells away. This won't get us out of Blink/SS/Utusemi, but it'll give RDM less shit to cast so they can actually spend some time hitting the mob.

Really, that's what kills a lot of RDM melee, all that casting. Cures, Nukes for MB, Enfeebles at fight start? This I understand and accept, but other jobs can enfeeble while still dealing notable damage to a mob. For RDM, the constant casting is detrimental to TP gain. This is likely why we have people dreaming up Regain as a spell, but they fail to realize its just something that will entrench them further in the backline, which is likely why BP wants it as a self-spell.

Also, notch up Enhancing skill to affect duration and potency of spells a little more than it currently does. This would allow RDM to have Stronger haste, Stoneskin, a more accurate Blink and increased duration to Refresh. BRD and COR's Refreshes are free and the duration on Phantom Roll is almost too good when they get lucky on Evoker's. A real boost to Refresh duration would help RDM quite a bit, they deserve a little more milage for the MP spent.

Take away RDM's Tier IV Cures, this is another thing that pushes them into the backline. With the third tier, they'd just be wanted on backup, thus taking another backline entrenchment away. It wouldn't take too much away from solo and oftentimes Cure III is more than sufficient for healing. But do give RDM Regen II and III to counterbalance this. Regen spells go a long way for cheap MP cost on healing.

Leave Refresh cost as is, but make the MP cost for Haste just a little cheaper, considering BRD can cast March for free and COR can't cast it at all, 40 MP for WHM and RDM seems a bit steep, especially so when RDM deals with a heavy melee PT. 20 MP would be a bit more fair.

Let Convert be accessable under subjob, knock it down to 37. This would help out every mage job and let RDM be even less entrenched in the backline.

[Malacite]

The problem is if you take too much away from the backline abilities it'll really hurt RDM's invites. I do agree with you though that they focus entirely too much on casting for a 'jack class.


Some people are bound to start crying foul about taking away enspells. To be honest, I have no sympathy for them. Partly because it's a class ability that belongs to another under-used class in FF history. (which I admit I'm biased towards)


But also because it would mean RDM would be free to gain IMO more useful benefits in other areas. Now before someone starts yelling about how it'll hurt soloing avatars/elementals and not feeding mobs TP, I want to say this:

Isn't soloing slow enough for RDM already? Wouldn't you be willing to sacrafice enspells for something a bit better, that might just end up speeding up the soloing process?


I don't agree with the Cure IV or Regen 2 (well not 3 anyway). RDM's traditionally had access to all but the highest tiers of spells, and FFXI reflects that quite well. RDM should keep it's ability to stand in as a main healer but taking away from it isn't the answer IMO. Giving it better front line abilities and strengthening WHM's curing power and endurance (MP-wise) would be a much better solution to the Pink Mage problem.

Ideally RDM should be up on the front lines like in past FF's, mixing it up with the WAR's and PLD's and THF's etc, while tossing out nukes/cures/buffs/etc as needed. That's the RDM I used to love back in FF1/3/5, not this watered down back line Pink Mage that FFXI has spawned.


What SE could do is give RDM some (exclusive?) melee gear that boosts their casting. Swords that boost nukes/enfeebles/cures comes to mind, but you'd have to have some really nice all-inclusive weapons, otherwise RDM would lose TP from swaps and it would be no different from using staves.

As it stands RDM only learns mage job traits. Would it kill SE to give RDM some melee traits and possibly better gear? Obviously they shouldn't get to use Haubergeon, but some new hybrid sets for RDM/BLU to use would be nice (crafted?) along with A- skill.

[IfritnoItazura]

Have to say my eyes pretty much glazed over everything but the "Counter: On Parry" bit. I think that'd be a fine little addition which shouldn't break anything, though not necessarily (just) on RDM. (I'd also like to see "Counter: On Guard" and "Counter: On Shield Block", while S-E is at it, but those probably shouldn't be on RDM at all.)

Don't think RDM is supposed to be master of parry, though; Ashigaru Earring seems to indicate that S-E has SAM in mind for that role. The Warlock's Earring and Warlock's Mantle point to regaining MP and Fast Cast as our forte, though I suppose the Rapier Belt does mean we're swordsmen of some sort.

[Gobo]

I'll just add a couple random things I guess.

If fast cast got boosted anymore, there would have to be a cap imposed on the amount reduced for % off casting time. Casting at ~45% with AF hat, relic body and Loq earring is very nice, but avoiding game breaking (and people complaining) is also not a bad thing to keep in mind.

Brave (aka Might) and Faith are in the game .dats. The animations look like a combo of the food/Absorb-Spell effects (STR, DEX, AGI for Brave, INT, MND, CHR for Faith). Take that for what you will.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Some people are bound to start crying foul about taking away enspells. To be honest, I have no sympathy for them. Partly because it's a class ability that belongs to another under-used class in FF history. (which I admit I'm biased towards)


But also because it would mean RDM would be free to gain IMO more useful benefits in other areas. Now before someone starts yelling about how it'll hurt soloing avatars/elementals and not feeding mobs TP, I want to say this:

Isn't soloing slow enough for RDM already? Wouldn't you be willing to sacrafice enspells for something a bit better, that might just end up speeding up the soloing process?

Nah, if anything I'd rather see tier II Enspells with more damage and added atributes or aditional effects depending on the element, but not removed from the job entirely. Enspells are one of the things I love about RDM, so I want that aspect of the job being improved, not removed.

And it's true RDM does way too much casting in a party to be able to justify meleeing, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I like RDM being a support class with good survival capabilities, so I'd rather see RDM getting a boost on Enhancing and Enfeebling abilities/spells/skill rating rather than being thrown to the front lines as yet another DD job who happens to be able to support a little, that's COR's role if you ask me.

(And also kinda what happened with the new DD PLDs really, which is why I stopped playing the job as I didn't like it's new role).

If I wanted to play a magic DD I'd be leveling BLU or DRK instead so I wouldn't have to worry much about party support.

And while I don't think MTK has a place on XI with BLU, DRK and RDM already out there, I'd rather see the job added before seeing RDM getting gutted in such a way.

[Malacite]

RDM really takes too much of a back seat for my taste. It'd be more fun if you could juggle roles at will (and not based on your subjob I might add).


For example, you're up there smacking the mob, all of a sudden you've got too much hate... so you tank it for a while, because you're a RDM. You can handle this for a little while until the main tank gets hate back. Or maybe someone's taking a beating? Cure 'em while bashing the mob's face in.

I really, really hate how RDM is mostly relegated to sitting back and casting. It's a lot more fun to be on the front while throwing spells every which way as needed rather than sitting back there with the WHM and BLM just casting all the time.


It's not that RDM can't do this already, because it certainly can. There just isn't enough incentive to do so. In most cases you'll only be hurting the EXP by moving up to the front where RDM belongs.

[BurningPanther]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

You realize that this would make us worse healers than SMN/WHMs and even PLDs, right?

That's [i]exactly what I had in mind. Less incentive to main heal means we get stuck in the role less often. Cures up to 3 and the Regen line would do well toward defining what we were meant to do--back up the specialist.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

That's way too extreme, and would probably get us ejected from parties entirely -- and leave us too terrible at healing to be able to make up for it by soloing anymore. What really needs to be done is to make WHM more efficient at healing than us without stepping on our Refreshing toes, not to overwhelmingly nerf us. Improving the higher Regens to make them longer-lasting and quicker-casting would help make them far more attractive as healers. I have lots of other ideas in that regard, but that's one example.

The only parties where our placement would be in jeopardy are burn-types, and if that's all you rely on, then, well... lol. In normal setups where there is already a dedicated healer, our role would be as solid as it ever was. I agree, however, that WHM should be given tools to make their healing superior. Natural traits increasing the potency of Healing and certain enhancing spells, in addition to the introduction of a Conserve MP(perhaps even Auto-Refresh) trait to WHM might do well to improve their standing. However, so long as RDM retains the ability to rather easily heal a party, that problem won't go away.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

I seriously doubt that if they added Might, it would have a five-minute recast timer...
...but this is a good argument to have it be castable on others, but balance the duration and recast timer such that only one person can have it active at a time, much as currently a WHM can only keep Regen II going on two people at once IIRC.

I follow your logic, a five-minute recats was mostly off the top of my head. Something longer would be better, perhaps.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

And yet we don't suck compared to a WHM for healing, and making us suck at that, instead of making us not preferable for that, would make our actual usefulness as mages a little too narrow. As it is, I find it a little odd that we get nukes that we rarely have any opportunity to use and that suck just a bit too much if we do bother casting them. Giving us a B- in Elemental magic would make us not quite as sucky at this while still leaving us sufficiently far behind BLMs in this regard due to the skill still being far worse and our nukes still topping out at tier III with no -agas. As for how it would help us enfeeble, note that I specifically said the elemental enfeebles -- which is to say, Burn, Frost, Choke, Rasp, Shock, and Drown, which work off of Elemental skill and can be subbed.

The problem is not that we're great at Healing skill, it's just that Healing skill just doesn't mean jack. Tooling Cure potencies to modify more with skill rather than MND/VIT will clear the difference in level between a WHM and RDM. I previously suggested introducing MAcc Bonus traits, which would serve to improve the reliability of not just Enfeebles, but Elemental spells as well, making our nukes less laughable. Again, it would simply make our casts more sound, without treading on the toes of the specialists in the skill.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

The thing is that to perform ripostes, we'd have to have hate, which should only be the case when we're soloing. It seems like a good deal of effort to ask them to go to when there are so many other things they could do instead that would be less work or would have partying benefits that could help us melee.

You've never had an instance of meleeing in party, where you manage to inexplicably pull hate? You've never been SATAd by the THF, momentarily holding hate to give the tank a breather? These aren't things I do as a matter of routine, but I can say they happen more often than not. A Riposte effect(in conjunction with improved Parrying), would not be foreign in such situations.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

Ahh, I see. That could be a worthwhile seal, but it also has the risk of being a touch overpowerful...

Maybe, but keeping it on a 5-10 minute timer would ensure you weren't just landing broken spells left and right. If it were comparable to the potency enhancement of Divine Seal, I'd merrily say it'd be worth meriting and downgrading from a ridiculous 20-15 minute timer(since S-E likes those so much).

Originally Posted by Pteryx

No, not at all. Fast Cast applies to every spell we cast and is a relatively small boost. Loquacious Seal, by contrast, would be a big speed boost up to once every ten minutes. It would give us an extra strategic option -- a small one, but sometimes it's the little things that count.

I see what you're proposing. Someone on KI suggested something similar in the form of a Doublecast JA. Feels kind of redundant, what with Chainspell and all, I'd rather have more Fast Cast for all my spells.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

In a way they already have it -- Banish merits.

Then imagine Light potency merits on top of Banish merits. 1337.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

I still say it would be too much better, overwhelmingly so. Maxing out Refresh under this system would not only double its output, but would double the speed at which Refresh gives MP back, which means people could cast more spells sooner effortlessly, which would be a huge swing in game balance. Refresh merits would be much, much more powerful than any other merits in the entire game. MP is much more valuable than HP; through healing spells, MP converts to HP at a very favorable ratio, after all.
A modest improvement to duration, however, would improve the return on investment from Refresh without changing the speed at which it accumulates, and thus the speed at which people would cast spells. As the current duration is one game hour, adding five game minutes to the duration per merit would add up to a total of 25% more MP over time -- the same as just one of your Refresh merits, without the side-effects.

You seem to fear that improving Refresh potency will somehow remove the urgency and thus responsibility of spells cast, when it's little different. You're taking a little less effort out whether you increase the MP/time or whether you increase the time in which MP is gained. To be true, I like the latter as well.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

You realize that at 10 HP/tick, it's comparable to Bio III and Dia III, right? Just without an att/def down effect. -- Pteryx

Yeah, but their DoT effect isn't that impressive either, especially for the cost. If nothing else, this only illustrates the value of more potent Poison; no reason it shouldn't have higher DoT, seeing as how it lacks any extra status effects.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

I hate to break it to you, but Haste does have to be cast every time. It's not like Refresh, where there's a maximum MP total that can be hit (and is easily observed to boot) and you'll be forgiven for not casting it on someone at 90%. Haste has too many benefits for melees and especially tanks, including increased TP accumulation, for you to get away with not recasting it at your earliest opportunity -- or sooner.

I'll agree htat if you Haste, it should remain consistent, but I'm going to disagree that Haste is so integral to a party's survival that it needs to be cast on every single melee. It's importance to mob lifespan parallels Refresh's importance to party endurance, and in either case, both get varied priorities. I'm certainly not gonna Haste every melee in a party if I have even one other thing to do, I'm not gonna Haste the guy who's constantly pulling hate and getting himself killed(/hairyeyeball to MNK), and if the tank isn't reliant on shadows and I've got a more pressing matter(like picking my nose), he can afford to miss a round, we aren't going to lose a chain because of it. The same sense of priority could be lent to Regain. If we're relying on a two or three DDs for Skill Chain, they'd get it. If not, the guy with slowest accrual might get priority. If in a TP burn, I'd be hard-pressed to see why any of them would need it immediately, they're already gaining TP wicked fast as is. They'd get it if I could fit it into my rotation, and not a second sooner. Regain would be no different from other spells: just because it's there, doesn't mean it needs to be cast all the time.

Originally Posted by Pteryx

I've suffered from a lot more cries of "{Haste} {please}" than "{Refresh} {please}". Whining about Regain would be even more brutal.

Your first mistake was listening to them whine. Let 'em cry. If they can't see that you obviously can't attend to their needs, that's their fault. Use of Regain would be no different.

Originally Posted by Itazura

Have to say my eyes pretty much glazed over everything but the "Counter: On Parry" bit. I think that'd be a fine little addition which shouldn't break anything, though not necessarily (just) on RDM. (I'd also like to see "Counter: On Guard" and "Counter: On Shield Block", while S-E is at it, but those probably shouldn't be on RDM at all.)

I actually think this is a novel idea.

Originally Posted by Itazura

Don't think RDM is supposed to be master of parry, though; Ashigaru Earring seems to indicate that S-E has SAM in mind for that role. The Warlock's Earring and Warlock's Mantle point to regaining MP and Fast Cast as our forte, though I suppose the Rapier Belt does mean we're swordsmen of some sort.

Statistically speaking, no, RDM is not Parrying-wise, the numbers are with COR, NIN, and THF. My beef stems from RDM being styles after fencers of the "Three Musketeers" variety, fencing employing the use of smallswords and daggers, and valuing parrying of attacks in strategies, yet RDM parrying skill does not reflect this. Maybe not a master of Parrying, but a hell of a lot better than we are currently.

[Malacite]

SE already adjusted cures to be based more on healing skill years ago. But I guess it wasn't enough huh?

They need to seriously change it (along with a drastic overhaul of the DEF/VIT system) so that there's a very noticable difference between RDM and WHM.


That said, I don't want this update to dumb down RDM's healing power. Rather I think it would be better if WHM got a major boost out of it instead, allowing for much less MP spent casting cures.

This would really help them get more mileage out of their MP and merits, and would make leveling a bit easier as a whole.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by Malacite

SE already adjusted cures to be based more on healing skill years ago. But I guess it wasn't enough huh?

Given that healing skill only seems to help one hit the soft cap...

Originally Posted by Malacite

They need to seriously change it (along with a drastic overhaul of the DEF/VIT system) so that there's a very noticable difference between RDM and WHM.

That said, I don't want this update to dumb down RDM's healing power. Rather I think it would be better if WHM got a major boost out of it instead, allowing for much less MP spent casting cures.

This would really help them get more mileage out of their MP and merits, and would make leveling a bit easier as a whole.

Personally, I feel the simplest answer as far as powering up WHM's basic Cures would be to just give them a Cure Potency +10% job trait at 40, possibly with an additional +5% stuck on at 75. They don't really need more than that to make even the dumbest WHMs stand out as more efficient. Beyond that, as I said, reward the smarter WHMs by making higher Regens as efficient as the lower ones, and quicker to cast so they're less risky to use. That way, a skilled WHM can outshine us healingwise very easily. -- Pteryx