[WishMaster3K]

Long-Story short: There is a RDM discussion on KI that is pretty much endless. And for the most part, they stopped trying to be academic about 3 pages in, and there are now 19 pages of flaming.

Too Long.

Didn't read.

See for yourself here.

On page 19, I chime in with my perspective, and Hyrist and I have a decent discussion. No one chimes in, so it seems that people might actually be interested.

Ignore the other posts, they're just flamers trying to flame each other for the sake of honor.

Or flaming.

Or something like that, I'm not too sure.

Anyway, I'm bringing the discussion to this forum since I actually give a damn about sharing information with you all.

Honestly, I don't really condone giving traffic to KI, but the posts that me and Hyrist put up are pretty lengthy. If I absolutely must I'll post a synopsis, but they're a quick read, honestly, and you kinda need to read the whole thing to get a feel for why I'm even doing this.

So anyway, there is more testing to be done, I'm actually having fun with this.

[BurningPanther]

Originally Posted by WishMaster3K

Long-Story short: There is a RDM discussion on KI that is pretty much endless. And for the most part, they stopped trying to be academic about 3 pages in, and there are now 19 pages of flaming.
Too Long.
Didn't read.
See for yourself here.
On page 19, I chime in with my perspective, and Hyrist and I have a decent discussion. No one chimes in, so it seems that people might actually be interested.
Ignore the other posts, they're just flamers trying to flame each other for the sake of honor.
Or flaming.
Or something like that, I'm not too sure.
Anyway, I'm bringing the discussion to this forum since I actually give a damn about sharing information with you all.
Honestly, I don't really condone giving traffic to KI, but the posts that me and Hyrist put up are pretty lengthy. If I absolutely must I'll post a synopsis, but they're a quick read, honestly, and you kinda need to read the whole thing to get a feel for why I'm even doing this.
So anyway, there is more testing to be done, I'm actually having fun with this.

Yeah, I too shamefully contributed to the flaming. I must repent!

Until I do, I am curious about one thing: What parser do you use?

[Murphie]

I'd have to register at KI to even consider replying, so I'll just not, and avoid the stupidity.

[Taskmage]

A properly geared rdm can be a decent melee and still support the party with our most important spells, which gain absolutely nothing from spell casting equipment (specifically Haste, Refresh, Dispel and if you're a fan of the spells, Dia and Regen). Convert even allows us to stay on our feet to avoid losing TP and still keep our mp up if we ration our casting well. Our damage may be nothing to write home about, but overall I think the additional DoT could be worthwhile.

On the other hand, after elemental staves come into play, you're losing out in a big way on any offensive casting you decide to do. All our debuffs see significant gains in accuracy and duration and in some cases potency when cast with the appropriate staff. If you're going to nuke at all the additional damage and accuracy from a staff is practically required, and a light staff makes you a 10% better healer straight up. Obviously you can't weapon swap and still WS, and you're going to get a lot of dud swings with the staff. It just doesn't work.

Overall I think the melee-support style is acceptable in certain contexts. Pre-Dispel you don't have much else to do than melee after you stick debuffs, assuming you're not main heal. From 32-50 it would just be a matter of keeping your mp up and picking up some pricey acc/attack gear to compensate for your lagging skill level. After that, I could only see it being useful in a party that's chaining Ts, where the mob's def and eva would be lower and the potential of our enfeebling magic would be wasted on shorter fights. I might give it a try in merit sometime for a change of pace, honestly—in a party with friends after I pick up some acc rings and maybe a merit or two in sword.

Really, the big problems are the difficulty and the equipment required. I consider myself to be a very good red mage, but once I pull out my sword even I start tripping up my refresh cycle and missing faded buffs or debuffs. A lot (most -.-) of the red mages I've met have trouble competently maintaining buffs and debuffs and backup cures even playing the job from a purely backline perspective. And the equipment ... red mage can be a very cheap job to play. DD jobs are generally very expensive. To keep up with their gear plus a little more to compensate for our skill rating on top of whatever pricy or difficult to obtain items you want to keep in your arsenal would be very taxing.

P.S. Still reading the exchange between you and Hyrist. These are some longass posts. >.>

[WishMaster3K]

First thing, yeah Taskmage, they're friggin essays.... So in the intererst of the argument, I'm gonna summarize. In the exchange between myself and Hyrist, he actually came at the situation with a level head. He stated a situation, and I responded with practical reasons why the situation would not work. Both of us had valid points. Exhibit A:

Originally Posted by Hyrist

A parse dose not count different credits for different tastes. For Example: (Varied Party Setup)

A SAM is currently free-skilling a weapon skill due his current partner not being able to keep up with a Samurai's TP gain. Their back liner RDM was replaced by a Hybrid Rdm(or what people like to call Melee RDMs.) After the ensuing debate the majority of the party agrees to give his methods a shot. Now, instead of using his weapon skill alone. The Samurai uses Tachi:Kasha on top of the RDM's Savage Blade the resulting light skill chain doubles Tachi: Kasha's damage, and (provided a BLM is in), 30%+ Damage on what may have been a free nuke. The RDM, who's MP is being further replenished thanks to the puller (Cor) bursts off the skill chain he opened for approximately 600-700 (Gear Swapping everything he needs to except his sword.)

But does the parser accredit the Red Mage for this? No it can't, it cannot read or discern those facts well enough yet, it just records the raw numbers. All the parser gave the RDM credit for was the magic burst and the Savage Blade he started with, which, being generous, would be about 1k's worth of damage. (It should be noted that a Hybrid RDM typically will not be able to burst off of every skill chain he contributes to, as he must manage his MP pool more tightly than a back line RDM.)

But Should the parties accredit the RDM for this? Absolutely. Without the rdm the window was not open before or was too inconvenient to do so. Now, like a Fellowship NPC, the Samurai has a secondary skill chain that can wait for him to help him boost his damage. (From 50-100% on SC, and a flat +30% acc/dmg on nukes.)

I realized that given this example, there are extenuating circumstances: For it to work, a mob has to have higher HP than the mobs in ToAU areas. Following up on that, the only mobs that fit that criteria are IT++, meaning that RDM accuracy won't be effective. It's a Double-Negative.

Originally Posted by Renarudo

I definitely see what you're saying in this regard. It is true that parsers show raw numbers, and raw numbers are only open to literal interpretation. Raw numbers can't take into regards things like battle flow and the potential that having two MBs in one match might have on keeping chains alive and ultimately having a higher exp/hour.

In your example, this is an ideal situation: One in which a SAM now has two people to SC off of, and the BLM has two MBs and the party still has the original setup, only needing a RDM to pitch in with their melee damage. This neither compromises the need for an additional Melee that would have sucked up party resources and adds flexibility.

However, I'll need a more dynamic example than this to be fully convinced. This setup might be able to work before anyone in the pt has substantial merits, but Melee at 75 are completely different beasts than melee at 65. In fact, in conventional pts nowadays, a decent SC with a decent MB and the mob is down half. Take into account that the melee will be gaining TP for the next fight, and you have no real need to SC twice in one fight. I think that your situation would be better on higher ITs like maybe the mobs found in Lufaise. I'll run it by some friends of mine after I do some practicing, because I'm intrigued on the concept.

From duoing with Charz on things like Robber Crabs and other miscellaneous mobs we skill up on, I can see that even if we both are in the 92% Accuracy range, lvl 75 melee gain TP WAY too fast. This might only apply to NINs and MNKs though, because they are the active definition of broken TP gain. In fact, until I duo with another job other than NIN or MNK, I'll retract that statement out of uncertainty. I'm still making it though, because not matter how it's sliced, Melee jobs have more tools to get TP than RDMs, so it's probably ultimately true.

But I don't want to venture into that area at the moment. Your example is very ideal, but many factors prevent it from happening end-game. One such factor is that people rarely invite BLMs. This is because if you simply take a BLM out the equation and add another Melee with /NIN, you can circumvent the need to do a SC and just spam WSs all day.

Personally, from parsing, I've seen BLMs resisted on a ton of occurrences, but as you stated earlier, effectively pointing out the faults of parsers, there are factors that influence this. If a BLM is able to throw out a couple of huge nukes a match and then MB unresisted on two different occasions in the same match, their damage would definitely be up there with other melees. But in the era of TP-Burns, BLMs are seen as a waste.

Again, I'm still debating whether or not I should go back to conventional set ups and simply level off of IT+ in Lufaise Meadows, where MBing twice a match is feasible, but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort when I can just get a BRD and 4 Melee/NINs and get a guaranteed 8-10k Merit points and hour with minimal work.

Pretty much, I said the same thing TaskMage said. There isn't a point when there are much better options for what we can be doing with our time.

But! This was a RDM Melee debate, and all the hypothesizing would do us no good. Being that I melee every day, I decided to just give it a go and post my results.

I plan on fighting a large variety of mobs and seeing if it's even feasible for RDMs to try and land hits on them. Word for word, here's the last thing I posted.

Originally Posted by Renarudo

Well I soloed a VT Imp and here are my results. I'll post my gear and I'll post the parser.

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?i...mpparsezl2.jpg
VT Imp Parse

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?i...9015987rc6.jpg
Melee Gear

One thing to note is that I was shocked my Acc was that decent.

But as all Melee know, Imps are jokes anyway.

Another thing to note is that the gear I was using was my Melee, not Acc gear. From this setup I only get +14 Acc (that's a Shikaree Ring, not a Snipers...).

My Acc setup gives me +29 Acc.

And I only have 1 Sword merit, putting me at 252. That parse was done with the Joyeuse main handed and the Hornetneedle subbed (Dagger skill is only at 217).

So it's feasable that my Acc might even be higher if I got rid of the dagger and used my Acc setup.

Anyway, I'll think about it later, because right now all I was interested in was actually doing something.

Nothing outstanding to really discuss because this was only taken from one mob. I'll run a parse over 10 mobs or something later this afternoon. I might even make a video if it doesn't lag me out too bad.

In all honesty, I was shocked stupid, cause Imps were ridiculously easier to solo than I remember Puks EVER being.

So I'll probably try a Puk and see where I stand. But until I get that Pahluwan Body, it's Imps for the sake of science!!!

Oh, and I got 240 exp from the kill also, lol...

So there you go, the basis of the discussion, and the aspects that influenced me conducting this "test." Since I actually graced KI with my presence, I feel that the posts are actually good read, especially compared to the trash we find there.

But aside from that, I'm trying to catch you guys up.

[Murphie]

Thanks for the synopsis. Much easier than wading through.

[WishMaster3K]

No prob, Murphie. Oh, to answer a previous question, I use DVS Parse 1.1.1

http://www.ultimals.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=82

Simple to use.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Like Taskmage said, the biggest issue that lies within RDM melee comes at 51+. Those staves are a big boost to nukes and enfeebles. And when those SC PTs do happen, you can contribute more damage just by Magic Bursts and the odd nuke than you likely would doing melee with en-spells.

Another sticking point is that there are two other jobs that get kinda peeved with a RDM going to melee and they do so for good reason - COR and BRD are, like RDM, trying to keep the PT efficent. And you have to ask yourself which is going to help the PT more - getting Ballad, Evoker's, Healer's or Warlock's Roll or the RDM getting melee buffs?

The answer is pretty obvious.

I'm well aware RDM can melee decently and some will look to a job like COR or even BLU as jobs that can play support role, yet are allowed to melee. Some RDM use this as their reason to melee. Fact is, COR can outclass RDM in damage over time simply because of gun damage. They may not be the strongest melee out there, but Slug Shot is not anything to sneeze at. Plus they can whip out the eqivalent of a Tier II nuke every minute and have a TP buff to top it all off. Factor that in with a /RNG sub and there's just no contest.

And BLU, same deal, only they have higher rating in sword and play host to a load of physical and magical spells. Can BLU be a backline job? Totally. Its actually a real strong point for BLU through the series and they can do it in this game, too. Problem? Most of them don't want to.

I personally think a good RDM thinks of how they can benefit their PT first before they start thinking about their sword, same as any support class. Melee ultimately is a selfish indulgance for most players. I can't even deny that there are CORs that are guilty of putting sword/dagger melee too high on the list when they could be doing more for the PT. The PT should always come first.

[tdh]

[b]Yes/[b].

As a RDM I've always tried to find what helped the party out, and did it. Need a pull? I have Gravity and Sleep. Need more damage? I can back up nuke. No WHM's seeking? I have Convert. When ever I'm in a Meripo, I don't have the time to draw a weapon, so I never really thought it out.

I used to do a lot of soloing. I was leveling weapons, farming Seals, and just basically showing off. Then I hit Lv.75 and kinda gave it all up. I also level a number of other melee jobs, (DRK63, WAR57, SAM45) so I have more than my share of DD experience.

But I can see how useful a RDM could turn out in your example W3k. By the time has more TP to blow on a Skillchain, the RDM would have the TP required to open another Skillchain. I'm surprised to the 600dmg Savage Blade numbers, but if you can open up for a SAM/THF who can 1k+ on Kasha it might just be worth it. Hell, for missions I've used a 45dmg Eviseration to open for a 1200dmg closing WS and 500+ Darkness effect to follow. Yeah that 45 dmg sucked, but that 1700dmg+ that followed was nice.

With gear I have now, I could pull off Acc+50 with one purchase I plan to make just haven't, but I don't know that it would be worth it for me in the semi-static Meripo I roll with. Besides I love to MB far too much to give that up. But trust me, I can imagine the fun it would be to give it a try.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

I guess after playing 70 levels of RDM and giving your party the proverbial "hj" of support roles so to speak, one gets a little unsatiable with everything, wanting something more.

I think melee is a great idea. What could it hurt? As long as you keep up your heals, refreshes, and hastes, in a WAR TP Burn pt w/a BRD, by all means, go for it.

You're LV 70 anyway. You've earned the right to step forward to the mainline and get in there and bust out a Savage Blade. Wonder though how you equip to get it to 600 dmg or what not.

Anyway, pre-70, post Refresh/Haste, if you are melee-ing, you're gonna get a ugly frown from me and possibly no Raise if you die. (If I was playing as WHM.) I think its discourteous to melee in the mainstream of the career.

If you have the ability to do it, by all means go for it. But I have yet to meet a person that can keep up all their support spells and melee effectively without giving the mob a bunch of TP for 1-2 ticks + 5-10 elemental damage.

If you main heal and do this, in that time frame.... you need your head examined.

[WishMaster3K]

I haven't fully explored all the parameters, but my general hypothesis is that in the ToAU areas, RDM can melee, but it won't contribute much.

There are no SCs, and in the amount of time it takes us to build TP compared to the other melee, then 2-3 mob rounds have gone by.

In the "old" world, it's possible, but mobs are grossly over powered... I'm gonna be doing this all day till I recap my exp, so I'll have more to report.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Shinhiryu_Kage

I think melee is a great idea. What could it hurt? As long as you keep up your heals, refreshes, and hastes, in a WAR TP Burn pt w/a BRD, by all means, go for it.

Ah, the old "we have BRD" excuse.

The BRD will want to give you ballad and without it, the RDM is bringng the PT's EXP per hour down. "As long as we keep up heals, refreshes and hastes" is also a classic RDM crutch, with a BRD's Ballad and RDM refresh you great potential for great EXP per hour, only thing the could push it over the top is adding a COR to that.

Why sacrifice the EXP per hour for your own selfish interests? The RDM melee is by far the most aggravating type of PT member when you're a BRD of COR because they willingly gimp the PTs potential so they can flail their swords.

You need mage buffs, not melee ones and no good BRD or COR would ever consider placing Ballads on the melee for the sake of the RDM melee. They only way you could ever possibly justify that is if all your frontline PT members use MP and even then, melee buffs are better for them, only the RDM should be covering jobs like BLU, PLD and DRK with a BRD or COR present. I'd never drop a four buff cycle to three because a RDM wants to melee.

And the melee will beat you on melee, TP gain and damage by a signifigant margin at burn levels, even a COR would.

Think about what is best for your PT at every level of the game, don't toss it out of the window just because you're in a burn PT.

RoZ and CoP areas I see a stronger argument for RDM melee, but TP burn is possible in those zones as well if you're willing to overlook the lack of sanction - anyone who's experienced roaming arrowburn or Rampage PT could tell you that. Your EXP per hour without sanction would still be better in those zones than focusing exclusively on IT++.

[Murphie]

The only time I considered melee in ToAU in a normal exp party was against Colibri, with a WHM in the party. I was virtually useless there (and I told the party so, and often left) as a caster, so I had plenty of time to get some melee in.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Murphie

The only time I considered melee in ToAU in a normal exp party was against Colibri, with a WHM in the party. I was virtually useless there (and I told the party so, and often left) as a caster, so I had plenty of time to get some melee in.

Even against Colibri, RDM melee is pointless in ToA. That's when you shift focus to support and just rest of MP otherwise. EXP per hour > finding weak excuses to melee.

[Hyrist]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Even against Colibri, RDM melee is pointless in ToA. That's when you shift focus to support and just rest of MP otherwise. EXP per hour > finding weak excuses to melee.

Ok, I've kept quiet, but now I gotta bite.

Kitten, you provide solid proof to me one example of how a RDM meleeing in a Burn Party will kill the exp per hour. Please. I would like you to give a Hybrid RDM a shot, if only to prove your point as opposed to speculation.
Now lets number crunch.

RDMs in Old Style Parties, without merits.


Unless a RDM is using Merit Enfeebles, a RDM will cast Paralyze, Slow, Blind, and Possibly Gravity on an 'old' style monster. (And Dia II if the WHM insists on being an ass.)

Using http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org as a refrence...
Dia II 30 MP
Paralyze 6 MP
Slow 15 MP
Blind 5 MP
Gravity 24 MP

Totaling into: 80 MP Per Mob, No recasts.

If we average 2 minutes per mob*, given 2 minutes of downtime per 10,(this is a grace period for whatever WC breaks or distractions happen in REAL parties.) that means 320 MP per 10 minutes are spent on enfeebles alone, using all enfeebles, no including dispel, haste, or refresh.(*Based on a ~4.8k/hr party)

Now a Back line caster will be inclined to Nuke during at least 3 of those fights during a chain.
Blizzard III costs 120 MP
Thunder III Costs 128 MP

Going with the lesser of these two, Bursting 3 times per 10 minutes (unmerited convert) would total 360 MP, more than all of his enfeebles combined, for what would be approximately 2400 damage.

Add in 1 Cure 4 that a RDM is most likely to cast on himself post convert. (
88 MP) and you are now totaling 768 MP per 10 minutes. Not including Cures, Hastes, Refreshes or Dispels, or any Hate management whatsoever.

At this point it should be noted, that if a Red Mage Refreshes and/or hastes a total of 3 times beyond himself in 2.5 minutes, he completely negates his own refresh benefits. (Meaning he will strike dead even.)

Now, in such a situation, if a RDM were to front line. He cuts off 360 MP cost form his pool, provided he never nukes, minus the cost of enspells over the course of 10 minutes. (12 x 3 as opposed to 120 x 3).

Provided a meleeing RDM fights intelligently, he can create at least 1, if not 2 Light Skillchains by opening, which, including the DoT from meleeing and enspells, can easily equate 2400 damage over 10 minutes.
Even without Merits, or sources of Auto-refresh, the 360Mp saved per 10 minutes is a rather significant preservation of MP. It is debatable that this worth more than a RDM should be resting per 10 minute span, when factoring in refresh cycles, hastes, Dispels, and Debuffs.


"new" burn parties.

The faster you go, two things happen mainly.
1. The more frequently you cast debuffs.
2. The lesser number of debuffs are getting used per mob in a party.

When you run about as fast as imps go, which is about 35-60 seconds, the amount of spells you cast that were based per mob are going down.

Against Imps, the three main spells you are casting will be Dia II, Paralyze, and Silence.
Silence is 16 MP

Bringing the new total per mob to 52 MP

Now, instead of 1 mob every 2 minutes though, it's 3

Which actually bring's the total up to 468 MP per 10 minutes, for about half the benefits RDM usually provides via enfeebles.
Now your haste load has most likely increased, as everyone wants haste, but this is the only case if there is no whm or other rdm in the party.

But pretty much after that, you are twiddling your thumbs. Granted healing needs a little more attention to it due to no actual tank, but overall damage to players does not really go UP unless something goes horribly wrong, which does not happen as often as people advertise. In fact, healing load is actually considered lighter in burn parties than in any other kind.

In the end it all winds up to the RDM in the burn party, sitting with 4-6 MP return per tic +24hMP gear, etc. Wondering what to do with all their free time and MP. A RDM can make a choice to produce More mp for themselves and contribute 'more' magically, or preserve some MP and contribute more physically. In the end a RDM can easily focus themselves in one direction or another with approximately the same amount of effort and gil spent focusing.

In all circumstances, it takes knowing what you are doing, and refining it through practice.

I would almost say a Hybrid RDM would contribute more for burn parties than a caster type, provided they both had the same experience and skill in their respected methods.

The truth of it, Kitten, is that the majority of Rdms that melee either have an inappropriate approach, or not enough experience/guidance in the field to do so correctly. Point being, the issue of RDM Meleeing causing decline in exp/hr has more to do social stigma and lack of player skill, then it actually has to do with factual game mechanics.