[hongman]

But its all a big mess, and when I miss a Refresh the cycle gets all messed up...meh

[forster]

You are always first on your party list, refresh yourself first then work down as appropriate to the bottom, when yours wares, start again.

This way, if you miss a single refresh, odds are it is your own and you can still keep the cycle going. Just skip yourself and refresh the next caster, and refresh yourself at the end.

You may need to play a bit of catch up and juggling - after practice you can pre-empt when refresh is going to end on someone, and cast before it wares, or just as it wares, but that is just practice paying off. Or at least it can be done most of the time.

Taru 66 RDM, and theres only a few MP between hp and mp, I was 1:1, but my hp are rising more than mana, but my future gear should sort that out.

Best of luck, give yourself another 20 levels and you'll either be sick to death of it, or you will have it sussed.

[hongman]

You know, I may actually dedicate an entire 6 macros for Refresh - one for each party member.

[Sabaron]

I don't let the order get screwed up. When there's a wear on cycle, I just recast the whole thing. It's always alternating Refresh and Haste cast as quickly as possible from the top down.

I try to make the cycle so that my Hastes overlap--this prevents any loss of recast on the hasted members if they happen to cast/ja while it's off. Refresh is not nearly as time-critical (one tick off is only 3mp). Haste lasts [EDIT] 30 seconds longer than Refresh, so I do my cycle like this:

Haste [me]
Refresh [me]
Haste [melee1]
Refresh [mage1]
Haste[melee2]
Refresh[mage2]
Haste[melee3]
Refresh[mage3]

Sometimes there's a hole, sometimes I have to switch something around to make the cycle more crisp, but it's not generally a problem. If I have a BRD I don't have to sit even if my cycle is 8 buffs unless I start nuking or something.

The first person who gets kicked off the Haste list is myself if I see my mp degrading faster than Conversion rate. Hasting myself shortens my cycle time and gives me more time to rest/cast other spells--this is a "dedicated buffer" cycle. If enfeebling gets thrown in the cycle gets shortened--I will only throw one haste. If refresh goes down during enfeeble cycle, I throw them up alternating enfeebles/nukes/cures/etc. I prefer this cycle to the dedicated cycle as the dedicated cycle gets old quickly.

With a NIN tank I usually only do two or three debuffs--Gravity (-Eva), Dia II (-Def), and Paralyze (it's cheaper than Jusatsu and many NIN don't throw Jubaku because of the expense).

With a standard party, the other mages usually pick up the vanilla debuffs and I just do Gravity and anything they have trouble sticking.

[hongman]

Ok, so lemme get this straight. This is what I currently do:

So far, when I fight starts, this is what I do (bearing in mind I dont have Haste yet)

Refresh myself when puller is pulling
Blind, Bio II, Poison, Gravity
Refresh Mage 1
Refresh Mage 2 or PLD
Slow, Paralyze

Then I recast any resists, until it either sticks or something else wears, then Recast Refresh on myself and start the cycle again.

The bit that throws me is if the mob pulls a stunt and someone's HP gets dangerously low, in which case I'll lob in a C3, or if something needs to be
Dispelled and then something else happens to screw my cycle up.

If it is a mob I know my enfeebs will last on and Refresh cycles have just been cast, Ill hit my +INT macro and nuke a bit.

Once I get Haste, am I expected to Haste, Refresh and enfeeb as well?? Right now the WHM Hastes, I presumed this was the case onwards.

[Sabaron]

If there is a WHM, which is not always the case (SMN sometimes gets that spot), the WHM only hastes the tank and often asks for assistance with the Hastes. Hasting the other melees increases the mob cycling time and may increase your chain level.

You can easily trade a spell like Dia II to the WHM and take a Haste.

You put in your cycle that you cast Bio II... In general, I don't recommend that. The -10% Def from Dia II multiplied by the number of melees will far exceed the amount of damage your DoT will cause.

I rarely cast Blind. When your tank is a NIN, they will throw Blind to get a little hate. A PLD tank usually starts with Flash which Blind cannot overwrite. You have to wait until the Flash effect wears off before you can actually stick Blind and Flash overwrites it. Blind is basically deprecated post 37th level for RDM on any tank except WAR/NIN which is not a common tank at those levels. Also with a NIN tank, if you're WHM is on the ball, they'll throw Flash when the NIN's shadows go down so either way, Blind is out of your court.

Other things: Just after levelling up, I horde enfeeble spells to recap my Enfeebling quickly. I will load up as many as I can get (short of casting Bio II), but I still don't steal the tank's Enfeebles. Haste is also very good for Gravity since it has such a long recast time and tends to wear off rather quickly. Once my enfeebling is capped, I tend to go back to RDM Onry Enfeebles and ones no one can land consistenly besides me and cast nukes sparingly depending on my mp reserves.

Here's my revision of the cycle you posted:

Assuming the cycle is "down" (e.g. my Refresh has worn off):

Refresh myself as soon as it goes down
Gravity
Refresh Mage 1
Slow,
Refresh Mage 2 or PLD
Paralyze
Dia II,
Poison II

The reason for this order is that a BLM casting Poison II at my level may be able to break 100INT and will do more damage, so I leave it off. A WHM has nothing to do at the beginning of the battle and may want to throw some enfeebles like Dia II which they can't fail at. They can stagger white debuffs in with their Haste cycle to increase efficiency.

I keep Refreshes as tightly coupled as possible, but never "wait" to cast them (e.g. Refresh Mage 1 followed immediately by Refresh Mage 2)--there's a whole spell's worth of casting time in between there (even two--you can stick a short spell and a long spell together like Slow/Dia II).

If the mob is Ice-resistant, I would move Paralyze up since it will be the hardest to stick. Earth-resistant obviously take slow first.

I do not recast Refresh until it wears off. Maximum efficiency on Refresh is immediately upon wearing or after it has worn off. If you recast before it wears, you've wasted mp. You shouldn't entangle the refresh cycle with any other activities. Just "go with the flow" as it were. Refresh is simply a very good "timer" for Haste since it's slightly shorter in duration. Therefore, if I insert Hastes between my Refreshes, I will generally be able to keep perma-Haste on my melees using Refresh wear as a time-line so that I don't waste much mp on the overwrite.

[Icemage]

- Unless you see your melees struggling to land hits, I'd skip Gravity at that level. It's a lot of MP for not a lot of effect (and remains true for quite a sizable portion of your RDM career)

- You're long past the point when Poison makes sense to cast. Skip it and save your MP and casting time. It just doesn't deal any measurable damage, and a lot of XP targets are resistant to water-based magic in any case (crabs, pugils)

- Blind is usually a wasted spell, too. Ninjas will be casting Kurayami: Ni, which is stronger than Blind anyway, and Paladins don't have the Evasion to benefit in any measurable way from Blinded enemies, so really the only time you're going to be casting this is with a Ninja who has failed to land Kurayami.

- Dia II is better than Bio II, except in the singular case of enemies that hit very hard with special attacks and a paladin tank (Spiders, Scorpions and Goobue, basically). In all other cases, Dia II is probably a better bet.

- I open fights like this:
Slow
Paralyze
Dia II

I cast in this order specifically because of recast timers. Slow has the longest recast, so casting it first means I get to recast it earlier if it fails. Note that this logic does not apply to Gravity, since the recast timer is so long that it hardly matters when you cast it; by the time the recast is up, the monster is probably dead and not worth wasting 30MP on.

Sandwich your Refresh casts in between if the timers are up; Refresh should really pre-empt everythhing that isn't immediately critical (Cures on someone who's in danger, Sleep I/II on a link, Dispel on a particularly nasty buff like Cocoon). And once you get access to it, cast Haste in between Refresh casts.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty certain Haste has a 30 second longer duration (180 seconds) than Refresh (150 seconds).


Icemage

[Sabaron]

The primary reason I throw Gravity is that I usually have the MP for it and it's often the only one I actually get to cast since WHMs take Slow/Paralyze on occasion and often grab Dia II. ^^ It's basically the only debuff I don't have to fight for. WHM who sees me getting an extra rest tick but who's already standing will usually apply debuffs, in my experience. NIN take Slow and occasionally Paralyze (but most NIN I've seen are rather stingy on the Jusatsu). BLM usually open with Poison II since it's low hate, and again, it's their window to Enfeebling Skill.

The 30 second difference is not largely important. It usually takes about 5-10 seconds for me to finish doing what I'm doing (casting/resting/etc) before I throw my first Refresh, so by the time I've got Haste on the burner, it's probably 5-10 seconds from elapsed which is about as big of a margin as I like to allow.

A lot of XP activity, I find, revolves around attempting to grab little ticks of your skill-ups when you can get them. As RDM the -hardest- thing I have to cap is Elemental and the most important is Enfeebling. I will take any opportunity to keep these two capped since I can't putter around my front Mog Porch self-casting.

[hongman]

Wow iv been doing loads wrong. So basically I wont be enfeebling much at at, bar Haste and Refresh?

Oh, and Primary reason I used Bio II - was a sneaky way to cap my Dark skill :p

[Sabaron]

It's not very sneaky--I always notice when someone overwrites my Dia with Bio, and I usually complain (my complaints usually involve /tell and numerous references to why it's inefficient with a suggestion to cast Drain/Aspir/Bio I instead). If you're subbing BLM, you should be able to throw Drain once a battle (sometimes twice depending on chain speed). If you've got more mp than you know what to do with because you have a BRD or COR running around, you could throw Aspir even if it doesn't get you any MP, but I don't know if you can get a skill-up that way as I've never actually tried it. Throw Bio I before you throw Dia II--if you must cast Bio make sure it can be overwritten.

If you're trying to get skill-ups and have some extra MP, you can throw these spells:

Dia (extremely cheap, and useful, cast it first)

Bio (cheap, not useful, but overwritable, cast it second)

Dia II (not extraordinarily cheap, but very useful, cast it last and don't overwrite it)

Stone/Aero/Water: These nukes are nice and cheap and will give you the most bang for your MP buck on Elemental skill. I usually just stick to Stone.

Burn/Choke/Shock: [see below] This is the most useful triad of Elemental Enfeebles. It's a bit expensive and takes a long time to cast, but if you can swing it, get some of them off. If you can't land the triad, just go for the one or two you can get to stick consistently--It's kinda hard to land Burn on a Magmatic Eruka so I usually just try Choke/Shock or Frost/Shock.


I don't cast Bio I or Dia I... I can usually get enough skill-ups over the course of 25kish XP to cap out enfeebling with useful debuffs.

You can't get skill-ups in Enfeeble/Elemental without a party, so throw a few here and there to keep your points up--you should get very good mileage on VT/IT mobs with Elemental since they only very rarely resisted even if your skill is quite a bit off cap. You can also throw the useful Burn/Shock/Choke cycle if you can land it. This cycle does 3 things: Increases Nuke damage (-INT, Burn), Increases stickiness of white enfeebles (-MND, Shock), and increases the top-end damage of your DD's (-VIT, Choke). The other cycle is not as useful: Drown (-STR)/Frost (-AGI)/Rasp (-DEX). Start with Burn generally as it will help the other two stick.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Originally Posted by Icemage

- Unless you see your melees struggling to land hits, I'd skip Gravity at that level. It's a lot of MP for not a lot of effect (and remains true for quite a sizable portion of your RDM career)

Is this really true about gravity?

I thought that was the mainstay of the RDM spell arsenal during any point in the RDM career and what makes him shine out above other jobs at any level, regardless.

To me, RDM is like a mini-BRD of sorts. Gravity + Dia 2 + Haste to help the Melee in party. Isn't Gravity a beautiful thing on high-evasion and IT-IT+ mobs? (Goblin Muggers, Toramas..) If a BLM is in party, Frost + Gravity + Dia 2 is a beautiful combo. I can remember at one point in my lifetime where I used to sub BLM and cast all 3 of those spells and the melee thanked me greatly.

Generally speaking, much of a character's career will be fighting against IT or IT+. Maybe against VT - T mobs, Gravity might prove of lesser value, but in any aspect of that issue, I would think multi-hit WS'es would still benefit greatly from a mob's lowered evasion, would it not?

Aside from the fact, if you have a sub-par tank or slow sub-vokers in party, Gravity is useful to keep a mob's distance from mages. Even more so when fighting mobs like Anticas. When they use their Petrify-AoE, they come straight for the mage's right after, usually, and a quick Bind while Gravity is on it, is quite useful until the melee recovers. The Fish-men thingies in Norg are great to cast Gravity on when they throw out their Enmity-killing water bubble thing, because then they like to go for the WHM of the group.

ES + Gravity and/or Bind is pivotal during many HNM camping situations and Gods.

I've heard alot of people in game speak negatively about Gravity and that it didn't appear to be worth using. But, as a RDM, I just don't have enough information to support its ineptness and I use it religiously.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Shinhiryu_Kage

Is this really true about gravity?

I thought that was the mainstay of the RDM spell arsenal during any point in the RDM career and what makes him shine out above other jobs at any level, regardless.

Yes, it's really true.

Gravity has two effects. First, it reduces monster movement speed to about half. Second, it reduces their Evasion by 5%. Until you're somewhere around level 50, this ends up being the equivalent of a handful of points of of +Accuracy for your melees. Add to this the very common use of Sushi (which is three times as effective, since it gives the melees +15% accuracy), the fact that it has a 60 second recast timer, and doesn't even have a good stick rate, and even when it lands it doesn't usually last very long against T+ enemies, on top of its 30 MP cost, and you end up with a spell that's "OK", but only really worth casting if you have absolutely nothing else to spend MP on.

To me, RDM is like a mini-BRD of sorts. Gravity + Dia 2 + Haste to help the Melee in party. Isn't Gravity a beautiful thing on high-evasion and IT-IT+ mobs? (Goblin Muggers, Toramas..) If a BLM is in party, Frost + Gravity + Dia 2 is a beautiful combo. I can remember at one point in my lifetime where I used to sub BLM and cast all 3 of those spells and the melee thanked me greatly.
Generally speaking, much of a character's career will be fighting against IT or IT+ Maybe against VT - T mobs, Gravity might prove of lesser value, but in any aspect of that issue, I would think multi-hit WS'es would still benefit greatly from a mob's lowered evasion, would it not?

Frost and Gravity have fallen noticeably out of favor since the inception of sushi. A long time ago, those were the best ways to make sure your melees could hit VT/IT+ enemies. Nowadays, it's no longer as true, and while Gravity is still "useful", it's has a lot more competition as far as ways to make your melees hit. Due to its inconsistent nature, fairly steep MP cost, and the fact that parties are just faster these days even at pre-55 levels, it has suffered noticeably in overall effectiveness.

Aside from the fact, if you have a sub-par tank or slow sub-vokers in party, Gravity is useful to keep a mob's distance from mages. Even more so when fighting mobs like Anticas. When they use their Petrify-AoE, come straight for the mage's right after, usually, and a quick Bind while Gravity is on it, is quite useful until the melee recovers. The Fish-men thingies in Norg are great to cast Gravity on when they throw out their Enmity-killing water bubble thing, because then they like to go for the WHM of the group.

Gravity is somewhat hard to stick, and honestly if hate is bouncing around that much, Gravity isn't going to fix your party dynamics (even in the case of Hydro Shot). It's not like running away from a monster with Gravity is all that productive - I personally think it's more effective to just stand there, do nothing, take the damage, and let the enmity bleed off normally. Even in the case of a monster with Gravity, it's not easy to land melee hits on it, so you're really not doing anything except extending the length of the battle.

I've heard alot of people in game speak negatively about Gravity and that it didn't appear to be worth using. But, as a RDM, I just don't enough information to support its ineptness and I use it religiously.

I think the major flaw of Gravity these days is that, looking at parties at 55+, you're never really going to use it if you're in a burn party. Up until then it has its uses, but when you're killing enemies faster than your recast timer on Gravity, it's time to throw the spell into the bin and find more effective magics to use.


Icemage

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Yes, it's really true.

Gravity has two effects. First, it reduces monster movement speed to about half. Second, it reduces their Evasion by 5%. Until you're somewhere around level 50, this ends up being the equivalent of a handful of points of of +Accuracy for your melees. Add to this the very common use of Sushi (which is three times as effective, since it gives the melees +15% accuracy), the fact that it has a 60 second recast timer, and doesn't even have a good stick rate, and even when it lands it doesn't usually last very long against T+ enemies, on top of its 30 MP cost, and you end up with a spell that's "OK", but only really worth casting if you have absolutely nothing else to spend MP on.

Cool. I didn't know the 5% evasion decrease was documented. I've asked melee to check an IT mob for me and its evasion after dropping a Gravity and they said it went from High Evasion to Low Evasion and sometimes None at all. I felt it was more of a significant %age than that, but that's every interesting.

Frost and Gravity have fallen noticeably out of favor since the inception of sushi. A long time ago, those were the best ways to make sure your melees could hit VT/IT+ enemies. Nowadays, it's no longer as true, and while Gravity is still "useful", it's has a lot more competition as far as ways to make your melees hit. Due to its inconsistent nature, fairly steep MP cost, and the fact that parties are just faster these days even at pre-55 levels, it has suffered noticeably in overall effectiveness.

Gravity is somewhat hard to stick, and honestly if hate is bouncing around that much, Gravity isn't going to fix your party dynamics (even in the case of Hydro Shot). It's not like running away from a monster with Gravity is all that productive - I personally think it's more effective to just stand there, do nothing, take the damage, and let the enmity bleed off normally. Even in the case of a monster with Gravity, it's not easy to land melee hits on it, so you're really not doing anything except extending the length of the battle.

I think the major flaw of Gravity these days is that, looking at parties at 55+, you're never really going to use it if you're in a burn party. Up until then it has its uses, but when you're killing enemies faster than your recast timer on Gravity, it's time to throw the spell into the bin and find more effective magics to use.

Thank you. I must respectfully disagree, however. The only time I ever remember having trouble sticking any enfeeble was when the mob was IT+/++. Otherwise, I had/have a very successful stick rate. Gearing up moreso on my mithra before, I never experienced any trouble sticking enfeebles w/a large INT/MND equipment swap set up.

In addition, I have terrible luck getting into nice burn parties. I, on average, get into decent xp parties where there are at least 1 person whose main job is the current level of the party. Even more so these days, returning to the game, I'm finding that on the more frequent end of the scope is just littered with new players or inexperienced players/gs'ers. In my own personal experiences, landing Gravity/Dia2/Haste proves quite effective to bring the playing field down to a respectable level. Sad, I know, but what other choice do I have?

In my personal playing style and given the circumstances of the party, I just don't find Gravity to be sub-par. The only time I found it completely unuseful was, as you say, in burn parties at LV75 in Sky and KRT. During those parties, it was all about, Haste/Refresh/Cure3/4. Dia 2 might have its place, but I never bothered with it in the slightest.

[hongman]

Ok, so Iv had a bit more experience now.

I have found that eating Goblin Mushpot for +10 MND enables me to land 90% of buffs whilst keeping ym Electrum Rings on for +MP. Not really stuglling too much for MP, though it depends on the party so far. SOme parties i hardly use any, others I am comstantly empty and Convert timer is just right.

I have now resided to the following "scedule" which most people seem happy with...

Start fight:

Refresh me
Dia II
Slow
Paralyze
Refresh Mage 1/PLD
Poison II
(sometimes Gravity here)
Refresh Mage 2
Nuke


Now, I have Haste, and boy am I having diffuclty with that! Luckily so far since I have had Haste, the parties I have been in have had a SMN which is using Hasetga, and I just stick my longer Haste on the PLD. Either that or the party has 2 RDMs which makes it easier.

Funnily enough, from 45-49 I have not been in a party with a single WHM!

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Shinhiryu_Kage

Cool. I didn't know the 5% evasion decrease was documented. I've asked melee to check an IT mob for me and its evasion after dropping a Gravity and they said it went from High Evasion to Low Evasion and sometimes None at all. I felt it was more of a significant %age than that, but that's every interesting.

It's pretty well documented. Useful nonetheless, but not night-and-day difference.

Thank you. I must respectfully disagree, however. The only time I ever remember having trouble sticking any enfeeble was when the mob was IT+/++. Otherwise, I had/have a very successful stick rate. Gearing up moreso on my mithra before, I never experienced any trouble sticking enfeebles w/a large INT/MND equipment swap set up.

It's not that Gravity gets full resisted very often; it doesn't. But partial resists are very very common even with a maxed out Enfeebling setup and merits, and even less so if you're still rising through the ranks. I levelled RDM with maxed Enfeebling merits and Gravity remained inconsistent despite HQ INT/MND gear.

In addition, I have terrible luck getting into nice burn parties. I, on average, get into decent xp parties where there are at least 1 person whose main job is the current level of the party. Even more so these days, returning to the game, I'm finding that on the more frequent end of the scope is just littered with new players or inexperienced players/gs'ers. In my own personal experiences, landing Gravity/Dia2/Haste proves quite effective to bring the playing field down to a respectable level. Sad, I know, but what other choice do I have?

Per your character profile here, it says you're level 40 now (I assume you started over since you mentioned burn parties earlier). Burn parties these days start around level 55.

In my personal playing style and given the circumstances of the party, I just don't find Gravity to be sub-par. The only time I found it completely unuseful was, as you say, in burn parties at LV75 in Sky and KRT. During those parties, it was all about, Haste/Refresh/Cure3/4. Dia 2 might have its place, but I never bothered with it in the slightest.

As I said, it's not that Gravity is bad. It's just not nearly as useful as it used to be. I like Gravity when you have the spare MP to throw around, but the range of burn parties these days is very large, and it's never really useful in that context.


Icemage