[arkaine23]

I don't have any Zenith gear yet. In fact I've pretty much always shunned hp < mp items. For a long time at 75 my base mp was in the mid 700ish (800ish with food) neighborhood, while hp a little shy of 1100. That's at 75 before I merited and before a lot of recent gear changes. I did finally break down and get one electrum ring (hp < mp 30) and sold the trusty mana ring (mp +15) I'd used for converts since lvl 40. I've now got a magnetic earring (mp +20 amongst other things), 5 mp merits and I can push my mp to 938. If I get another electrum, I think I'll be at 1017 hp / 968mp. That's with a marron glace mind you.

BTW I like playing RDM/BRD too. I lose 97 mp doing so. I gain 200mp/10 minutes from ballad, and so do the other mages in party with me. Also lose some effciency from Conserve MP (tho now I have the magnetic earring to give a little bit of that back ^^). It may seem like a subjob with no mp is gonna make things more difficult, especially on non-taru. I'd only hesitate on this job combo as a galka. TBH I think ballad comes very close to making up for losing base mp and conserve mp. Very, very close.


But yeah, on the way up things are a lot different. A lot of that grind a hume will have 500-600 mp, and an unmodified 10 min convert timer. I never went for hp < mp gear on the trip up as I mentioned. I was all about stats- potency and accuracy. A non-taru rdm may not haste all melees all the time. I know I didn't. They'll try to burst every time as long as their burst is needed (i.e. the blm MB is not sufficent). It's just playing a little more conservatively.

On the flip side, I can't tell you how many times an AOE or taking some hits has left me with less than 200 hp, heck even less than 50hp (where even some hp < mp gear would have killed me). Or times when I was kiting in some critical battle, and then made it another minute because I got a lucky casting off when my health was very low and was able to keep going. And just maybe had I been a taru, I'd have been face down instead.... Granted, sometimes those extra hp are not gonna keep you alive much longer, when **** hits the fan and everbody's going down.

You can say one race has an advantage over another in the area of mp. There is a penalty that goes with that advantage that might get you killed a little more often than other races. Taru can gear differently to make up for this, but that in itself has a cost as well. Play what you like to look at, seriously (that's why I'm playing a hume female ^^). And give a little consideration on secondary job choices and their stats too. Like I play monk also, and I'm glad I have the more balanced melee stats of a hume as opposed to if I had chosen to be a fat, ugly, big-headed, little munchkin... err I mean tarutaru. Beware the two races with low mp as they'll be tougher to play because you'll have to be more conservative, until you get to the end and work hard for crazy gear and mp merits. At the end, racial differences become much less significant.

Play what you like. You can make it work.

[Hamlet]

I agree that you should play what you like to look at, but just be aware tarus are going to have a distinct advantage.

arkaine, that's cool that you can get hp/mp that close only with mp merits and food. Something for me to look forward to because I don't think I'll be getting zenith anytime soon.

It still doesn't change the fact that tarus don't have to use mp merits and can use them to boost other stats and can also use stat boosting food.

For hume vs. taru, it's never a job breaking advantage. It's not going to prevent you from being effective. But it still IS an advantage.

I'm surprised you didn't use any mp+ gear on your way up. Playing /whm currently, and macroing in custom slacks and two electrum rings, I get nearly all of my hp back with a divine seal/cureIV/convert with light staff, so I'm basically full hp and mp every 10 min which is pretty nice.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't play hume, but just be aware that you'll never be as effective as a taru who spends an equal amount of time on gear/merits. You'll have to hold back a little bit, and for elvens even more so. But rdm is a pretty busy job, and I don't think even a taru could do EVERYTHING a rdm is capable of, because of time constraints. But he/should could do more.

[Rai|Kye]

Originally Posted by Icemage

BRD/NIN pullers because Utsusemi takes less time to cast than Stoneskin+Blink. The faster you pull, the easier it is to make those continuous chains, and more XP you make. It's that simple.

When you have a talented mage backline, you don't need the extra cures and -na spells from your main puller.

---

You've never seen RDM/BRD in action, have you? I use it all the time. It's very, very powerful in XP settings, and if you disagree, well, I guess you're just missing out.

---

Actually I have more HP than the MP-hungry Humes and Mithras. Probably because.. hmm... I don't have to use HP>MP gear.

Only stupid Tarutaru die at end-game. Smart Taru invest in +HP/+PhysResist gear, which makes them more, not less, survivable since they don't have to worry nearly as much about max MP on their gear (and the typical -HP associated with those items).

This isn't to say that hume mages are bad - they're perfectly acceptable at end-game and compare quite well when equipped properly. My original point was that Taru RDMs have a big advantage in the low 60s up through the low 70s, where gear cannot make up for the difference in HP/MP balance, and allows the Taru RDM to push the envelope much further than their lower-MP counterparts.


Icemage

i'm sorry but you seem to have never been in a real burn party ...
you dont have any mage backline in a burn party .. maybe a rdm, some even go without a rdm and only have brd/whm for heals in party. RDM dont have divine veil so if you fight against mobs that for example paralyga, a 2nd member with -na spells cant hurt.

and if your burn partys get mobs faster down then you can cast SS then hands down are your partys the gods of FFXI.

have you ever taken part in any real endgame activity ? im not talking about kirin or Dynamis because thats a walk in the park....
If you would ever have done Bahamut Round2 you would maybe finally understand that maxMP means nothing when you die with a 80% full manapool

[swingfly]

For merit partys (slightly depending on where you are) 3x melee, 3x mage/support is still the best. Brd + Brd + Rdm or Brd + Whm + Rdm leads to endless chains in ToAU areas and really high numbers everywhere else. With this type of setup I've reached chain 250 in ToAU (at this point we broke up) and 70+ in Ule Range. Special situations have slightly different setups as really great options, for example 4x Nin + 2x Brd partys are really good on a lot of things.

Also, as a Taru in end-game I could easily stroll around in 1100-1200 hp if I wanted to, just like a Hume or Mithra can reach 1000+ mp. The gear available at this point of the game really makes all races more or less equal when it comes to hp/mp. It just takes a bit of work and gil to collect it.

[arkaine23]

Whoa, let's not pick on Icemage. I respect his opinion and all that he's expressed on these forums. I may not agree with him that overall tarutaru is the best race to play a red mage, but well I just don't like tarutaru, and /em punt them around all the time. :p His mp argument is valid for most of the xp grind.

There's too many ways to play a red mage to talk about what's best under all circumstances. MP helps, there's no doubt. But between refresh and convert, mp is less important to a red mage than other magic-using jobs. In soloing, depending on the method employed and your target, a lot of mp can be very valuable or inconsequential. The same can be said of melee stats, given you're not necessarily meleeing when you solo. Sometimes red mages are just needed to haste/refresh/cure bot. Sometimes we are main healers in regular-paced or fast-paced parties. Sometimes we are self-sufficent kiters in BC's and other tough fights. One time in sky, I was even cast as a puller and DD as rdm/nin, and I ate sushi, helped haste, enspelled, and busted out my HQ melee gear.... But usually we support, with enfeebles/debuffs, refresh, haste, back-up curing, sleeping links, emergency escapes, and MB nuking. We can make use of a lot of subjobs and gear configurations, and that allows for a lot of situational roles adjustment.

Most of the time we're mages. Int, Mnd, and MP matter a lot. And the point about mp being very valuable up to the 70's is a good one, because the player base will typically load us down with supprt duties since we are capable of heavy spell-casting loads. That is our primary role in the game and within a party. We're very survivable by nature of our self-buffs, magic def traits, and defensive armors. Red Mages are usually the last man standing when things go south. But we're not beyond being one-shotted either, buffs or no.

If I was to recommend a race based on stats for red mage it would come down to 3: Hume, Tarutaru, and Mithra that are perfectly acceptable. And really, I'd pick hume over mithra, no matter how sexah they are. Then if I consider that red mage is not the only job I want to play, and that in fact I want to one day take up a melee DD job (e.g. not thf), Hume wins. But that's just me. I don't like the idea of multiple characters for multiple jobs. Beat CoP/RotZ twice? Inability to trade r/ex gears with my other chars? {No thanks.}

[Hamlet]

I think a taru playing a melee job is equivalant to a hume playing a mage job. Both are passable, but one is better than the other. Also, tarus bring some interesting things (like massive mp pool for drk). The only job that's unusual for tarus is taru pld, but they are usually great on the way up, although I understand they may be lacking for stuff to do once 75.

I guess it just comes down to personal preference really. You don't like tarus, so you're going to come up with reasons why they aren't good and those reasons are going to stand out as significant (the hp thing and dying). I like tarus (I think they're cute as all get-out), so I'm going to come up with reasons why they're better and they will seem significant.

Like I said, I don't think humes are gimped at rdm. I would probably quit RDM if I did, or felt I couldn't do my job. But I just want the OP and people starting out that even though guides call rdm a melee mage and master of all, 99% of the time you'll be on your ass in the backline casting spells. Also, don't do rdm/nin until 74.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Rai|Kye

i'm sorry but you seem to have never been in a real burn party ...
you dont have any mage backline in a burn party .. maybe a rdm, some even go without a rdm and only have brd/whm for heals in party. RDM dont have divine veil so if you fight against mobs that for example paralyga, a 2nd member with -na spells cant hurt.

and if your burn partys get mobs faster down then you can cast SS then hands down are your partys the gods of FFXI.

have you ever taken part in any real endgame activity ? im not talking about kirin or Dynamis because thats a walk in the park....
If you would ever have done Bahamut Round2 you would maybe finally understand that maxMP means nothing when you die with a 80% full manapool

- I've done countless burn parties (TP, mana, bones, arrowburn pre-RNG-nerf, etc.) as Bard for merits. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. I've been levelling exclusively in burn parties (manaburn, TP-burn) on RDM from level 65-72. I've seen what works at these levels, and what doesn't. I'd say that gives me a much better view of what works and what doesn't at those levels than you might have, hm?

- I do more endgame activities than the vast majority of players. Haven't done Bahamut only because I haven't been around on those days when my LS did it (took 6 months off from the game), but I've lost count of how many times I've defeated Dynamis Lord, Tiamat, Vrtra, King Behemoth, Aspidocheline, Fafnir, etc. Only one I know the exact count for now is Jormungand, and only because my LS only beat him twice just to prove we could do it - his drops are amazingly mundane.

- Stoneskin and Blink take forever to cast (about 9 seconds total) compared to Utsusemi: Ni (3 seconds total). Against stiff competition from other parties, that is the difference between continuing your chain or losing a pull and breaking it and starting over with a new chain.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

It seems like people who don't like Tarus are either jealous of how cute they are, or jealous of how much MP they have. Or both. Not that I mind!

Forum E-peen competitions are very World-of-Warcraft. Don't give in, Icemage! You're better than that!

[Omni]

This is really funny. I think out of all the forum members we have here, Icemage is probably the last member you'd want to actually try to contest in terms of experience. Sorry, guy but you're outclassed.

[Rai|Kye]

ok you guys are pathetic ...
just because icemage is a supermod you all <3 him ? wtf >>
Maybe on your server the brds sub NIN. ok fine for you, i think its gimp. And that utsu cast and recast is shorter then SS and blink is nothing that justifys the loose of erase, curaga and re/raise.

Originally Posted by Icemage

- I've done countless burn parties (TP, mana, bones, arrowburn pre-RNG-nerf, etc.) as Bard for merits. Been there, done that, have the T-Shirt. I've been levelling exclusively in burn parties (manaburn, TP-burn) on RDM from level 65-72. I've seen what works at these levels, and what doesn't. I'd say that gives me a much better view of what works and what doesn't at those levels than you might have, hm?

i have RDM NIN RNG BLM at 75, BRD72 and WAR at 65. i have alot of AF2 for NIN and RNG, beaten DL a few times. but hey, what do i know ?

but i dont want to argue with you anymore.. everyone thinks what you say is law, so i just take stop posting on this thread...

[Patchinko]

Originally Posted by Rai|Kye

ok you guys are pathetic ...
just because icemage is a supermod you all <3 him ? wtf >>

It's because he's shown time and time again that he's experienced and knowledgable without degrading others that I respect his opinion. Your trolling posts, on the other hand, garner no respect whatsoever.

[IfritnoItazura]

Rai|Kye,

From a forum newcomer's point of view, both you and Icemage have strong opinions, and willing to express them. The difference? Icemage backs up his opinion with a ton of supporting evidence, and fully qualifies his position. He responds to contrary views with even more detailed explanations and careful analysis of the opposing idea. Whereas, when you're challenged, you resort to:

Originally Posted by Rai|Kye

i'm sorry but you seem to have never been in a real burn party ...

Originally Posted by Rai|Kye

ok you guys are pathetic ...
just because icemage is a supermod you all <3 him ? wtf >>

Insults.

That's why he's better liked than you; Icemage is a nicer person who takes the time and care to explain his point of view properly, and does not putting down others who simply disagree with him.

* * *

Getting back to the topic (kinda):

My Mithra RDM hit Lv.30 last night. (Yay!) Since we had WHM, I tried for the first time to play as RDM/BLM. And, I noticed... no difference. I'm still casting the same spells (minus Poisona, which we didn't need against Makara and Sahgin), and getting about the same resist rates as /WHM--better than gobs, worse than mandies. -_-

I supposed I could've cast Drain for kicks, but my dark magic is capped from BLM anyway, and the SC was Fusion, not Gravitation. Didn't need elemental seal to sleep the one link the RNG didn't try to zone...

If I bring Yagudo drinks (well, make my BRD friend cook those out on the field), can I get away with using RDM/NIN to dual wield spoons--I mean, wands? Would that help to lower the resist rates?

Do you folks think an enfeebling (dual wands!) RDM/NIN at this level can work better than RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM? (Maybe it would work better for Tarutaru?) If nothing else, Doton: Ichi to lower resist against Gravity, and Huton: Ichi to lower resist against Paralyze? lol.

[Taskmage]

Probably not. I don't remember how big the bonus on wands at that level is, but it probably isn't more that the few points you get just from having a mage subjob. It certainly wouldn't make up for the mp loss. Yeah, I suppose you could drink yags, but why spend that kind of money when you could get a similar performance for free with another sub?

The resistance reducing ninjitsu would work, but I'm not sure whether it would be worth it.

Double Post Edited:
Btw, is anyone else amused that Rye's avatar is the flame alchemist?

[Icemage]

I don't recall having any issues casting Slow or Paralyze even as a Taru RDM with slightly lower MND than other races at level 30. Honestly, the sub you pick, prior to level 50, isn't really going to make or break you if you play to your strengths.

I won't dismiss /NIN out of hand at level 30, since none of the other subs offer much in terms of tangible abilities up through that point: /WHM doesn't have Curaga or Barfira yet, /BLM gives you only Elemental Seal at that point - not a single spell. Ditto for /BLU, aside from the incredibly potent Coccoon spell, but it's not likely that you'll need the defense.

I remember I subbed Bard for Army's Paeon and Sword Madrigal in the 25-30ish range on RDM, since as you've noticed, you don't get much that's actually useful from the typical subjobs up through that point. Nowadays, /COR might be viable for Corsair's Roll to slightly speed up your XP gains without costing your party much in terms of effectiveness.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

Probably not. I don't remember how big the bonus on wands at that level is, but it probably isn't more that the few points you get just from having a mage subjob.

Lv.18 Yew Wand +1 (INT+4 MND+4)
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Yew_Wand_Plus_1

Lv.32 Solid Wand +1 (INT+5 MND+5)
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Solid_Wand

Should've researched it to be begin with; if this thing is accurate:
http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/

(At Lv.32)
RDM/WHM vs. RDM/BLM vs. RDM/NIN

INT: 32 vs. 35 vs. 33
MND: 34 vs. 31 vs. 30
MP: 242 vs. 250 vs. 206

Looks like RDM/NIN w/extra Solid Wand can buy me INT+2 over RDM/BLM, and MND+1 over RDM/WHM. That does sound pretty minor...

Losing 36 MP compared to /WHM, which is a bit more Cure II, and more than enough for the Thunder I often cast free nuke to speed up kill for chain#4.

If mob TP move isn't a major concern, I guess I can make up for it damage-wise by contributing damage with swords and en-spells, but running between front and back seems like a huge hassle.

In enfeeble terms, I'd have to make 5 or more Paralyze land per chain on RDM/NIN over RDM/BLM to make that worthwhile MP wise... That doesn't seem likely, though opportunity cost of not landing paralyze on first one or two tries may make smaller improvement worthwhile. Ninjutsu can help with debuff, though, at opportunity cost of 4 seconds per cast. Now I think about it, Doton and its peers probably can't be resisted entirely, so it's like adding 4 seconds to Gravity to ensure better accuracy.

RDM is sure complicated...