[kuu]

We'll get to 80 when we get to 80. It's been discussed to death. Try not to beat a dead horse :sweat:

Convert isn't that great when you consider what you loose to other jobs.

The only reason they would go /rdm is dispel, not convert. Heck a blm sub's mp conservation is just as useful at high levels.

And assuming 80 would be new cap it's endgame thinking, which sadly convert plays limited role.

[ibroyles]

Yeah even if they raised level cap to 80, mages wouldn't have convert until they hit the cap..so it doesn't really hurt any rdm's while looking for party or anything.

[Jei]

Originally posted by ibroyles
Yeah even if they raised level cap to 80, mages wouldn't have convert until they hit the cap..so it doesn't really hurt any rdm's while looking for party or anything.

Good point. In the other hand, because refresh will still be unique to us S-E doesn't need to give us refresh 2 to be unique right? ; ;

[ibroyles]

Originally posted by Jei
Good point. In the other hand, because refresh will still be unique to us S-E doesn't need to give us refresh 2 to be unique right? ; ;

don't get me wrong I think everybody wants refresh 2 =D

[Ungerpurr]

One would assume that when/if the level cap is raised to 85 (yikes), they'd give rdm a refresh 2 around level 65 or something. It'd be pointless for them not to get it until 82 or whatever, imo, refresh deserves to be used for leveling (and lots of it!). Also, since with refresh and convert rdm would be the most desired sub 80+, maybe they'll also throw in a gravity 2 or gravi -ga around 65ish also?

As far as convert, I'm willing to bet they'll just nerf the conversion ratio, maybe have MP->HP still convert at 1:1 but HP->MP at 1:2.

I bet next expansion (due when...early-mid 2006?) will have another level cap raise somewhere in its lifetime (similar to how caps were raised during Zilart). Probably not going to happen during the CoP 'era', though.

[kuu]

The cap is due to the problem of end game.

Until they think of bigger badder bosses, it's like a lvl 75 againist shadowlord. Eat him up and then step on his corpse.

Like ZM it's relatively simple.

CoP fixes most of those issues by introducing lvl capped zones, which if it happened for stuff like shadowlord, would have been heck of a tough mission.

Maybe when the time comes they will have NM like king B moma with meteor2, etc.

There are signs of a lvl cap raise, with the new xp system, though they will have to deal with the merit point system, which would be a stab in the foot problem.

BTW i don't believe equal convert is all that good. I think maybe 20% more hp is better as many times rdms are hurt slightly, and have to heal themselves to full wasting mp anyway.

[WishMaster3K]

Many of you seem to be missing the way Convert actually works.

You are probably under the impression that, for example- If you have 500HP and 400MP, and when you are down to say, 10 MP, you convert at full health, giving you 110 HP (in other words, HP "Left Over")

This is incorrect. What would happen is your HP and your MP switch, giving you 10 HP and 400 MP. No "extra" HP is transfered over, and the fact that you think this is strange.

Looking at a Hume Red Mage in a pt I had, when he converted, his HP went to 29 from full. There is no way with his 500 MP and 800 or so HP that his HP switched over.

That is why I was upset at seeing

BTW i don't believe equal convert is all that good. I think maybe 20% more hp is better as many times rdms are hurt slightly, and have to heal themselves to full wasting mp anyway.

and

As far as convert, I'm willing to bet they'll just nerf the conversion ratio, maybe have MP->HP still convert at 1:1 but HP->MP at 1:2.

As it has been said with a variety of other topics including subjobs for exp as opposed to solo and meleeing RDMs, things have been proven over time. Furthermore, if you care to debate a moot point, take a look at the recent census. the Third- THIRD highest job is RDM/BLM.

Replying to Balodoth, how deeply do you actually care about Red Mage?

When suddenly every mage and their carbuncle has Fast Cast, Resist Petrification, and now Convert, wouldn't it make sense for S-E to add something to keep RDM interesting and different? Just about the only things left is Refresh, but who needs Refresh if you have Convert?

For one, Refresh is like an endless stream of MP when under the care of a good Red Mage. Furthermore, every mage loves free MP. Perhaps you do not understand how big an impact always getting 3/MP a tick has on a mage, and furthermore, the party. Before Refresh, Mages were the ones slowing pts down. With the addition of Refresh and healing staves and food, Mages are limited by melee and their TP. I'd like a Red Mage to not cast refresh and only use convert, as said by your post. They will find that they will need to convert after less than 5 minutes.

On the flip side, I hardly need to convert anymore. Maybe once every 30 minutes if my static feels like 7k an hour. This is why I do not understand why you felt you should attack my post and why you would say something so blasphemous. Since you felt similar, I'll pick apart your post since you missed the obvious tone of mine and felt I was out of line.

If S-E raises the cap, which becomes more likely the longer the game goes, mages will suddenly have access to Convert. S-E has never denied any subjob abilities (if they aren't the same one), and the wouldn't start then

Point one- they have not denied and SJ abilities due to the fact that before lvl 37, having those abilities on other jobs is not the same as having the job. Why woul Chi Blast be at 40 (41 I believe...)? Because it is an ability unique to MNKs. a MNK can boost for 5 mins and have an attack in excess of 700 and Chi blast for over 1k. I've seen it done on Gods and such, and imagine is say, a Ninja could have access to a job ability so deadly. Ninjas with shadows, boost and chi blast would be ultimate kiters, effectively putting even MORE melee out of jobs.

Now let us look at BLMs and WHMs that have convert. While I am no doubt sure this would only help WHMs, especially Mid-battle when the situation looks nasty and they have no choice but to Bene, with no MP, leaving themselves open for easy death, a WHM can convert and be good to go. BLMs with Convert on the other hand would lessen downtime, but then you wouldnt have BLMs afraid to nuke due to no MP constraints. Granted, BLMs that high understand to use weaker nukes to build damage and big nukes for MB (hell, at least I HOPE they know that) and this is hypothetical, but if other mages had access to Convert, I see more cons than pros.

I feel truly bad that simply saying that it would have adverse effects in the long and short run meant that you had to think about more than what was on the surface, and that I had to break down your abysmal and condescending reply to my post with a condescending one of my own, but I take my job seriously, and when I hear such statement as your totally oblivious one, I cant help but to reply strongly.

Please think about a concise response to this post if you feel as such, or I will have to respond is a negative and detrimental tone again.

Kazekage

Edit: Furthermore, I do not care what level you are or what endgame bs you have or how many jobs you got to 75. Knowledge is there and if you feel that it is ok to be ignorant to truth despite its validity and the fact that it come from someone lower than you who knows more, then that is your problem. This part is targeted at anyone who feels they can pull rank. Seeing "75" next to your name doesnt impress me while posters with useful information from the likes of Bono, Gman, Neighbor, Jei and many others that I know take this job seriously do.

[Macht]

I don't know WishMaster. Some Jobs have nothing very special for them or that makes them unique at all that 40+.

RNG for example their Sidewinder can be used anyone with /RNG and Barrage is lv. 30 not 40. At 51 we get Unlimited Shot, but that just saves us 1 arrow every 5 min.?

Look at much of the latest Equipment released and RNGs abilities are not so unique to them. A SAM is even able to use the strongest Bow a RNG could possibly get.

Unless they just overlooked it and let RNGs unique quality be ignored. Then you also have WAR, SAM, THF, MNK, and BST after lv. 40 they don't really get much abilities that make them so unique. Right now the only unique thing BST has is they can use those Jugs that's about it, how much use do the Jugs really get?

For a Sam anyone lv. 60+ has all of their abilities. They don't get the enhance "meditate", but there are alternate gear to use the rice balls like the Sams AF and even many items to add more to "Store TP".

So I don't see a reason they wouldn't progress the level to 80 someday. Before they do though if there really is some ability that's to be unique to that job as Main only you'll probably see it going in the same method as the 2hrs do now.

EDIT:

Don't know if you were directing any of your last post at me with the HP extra HP not carrying over it's just lost. I know that already. Which is why I said getting HP and MP eqaul or maxing MP as high as you can and if HP happens to be higher then you're good.

If you can actually push MP to the highest possible and still have 100 HP more then that's a 100 HP buffer of damage you can take before doing a convert and still get full MP in the covert.

[Jei]

Until they think of bigger badder bosses, it's like a lvl 75 againist shadowlord. Eat him up and then step on his corpse.

um... shadowlord was an old old boss you know. The story it tells and the ranks are the main thing we get from nations missions so I see no point to take make them any more difficult. They tell stories and are fun to take part and watch, aren't those enough? What about the rank 2 missions where you need to kill some mobs? too easy for 75 right? The way you talk is almost like S-E provide nothing challenging for 75s to do. Now it's not S-E fault if you're 75 and decided to farm bee hive chips in giddeus all day long and moan that the bees are too easy. Since when did S-E "didn't" think of bigger badder boss ? Gods, ENMs, hello?

It's not like your go camp shadowlord everyday for drop huh.

[WishMaster3K]

Thankyou for correcting me and the additional insight, Macht, especially coming from someone who can look firsthand.

True, many jobs can sub RNG and get sidewinder (currently at 160 in archery myself ) and SAM also get the bow that RNG use.

I suppose my argument of job uniqueness falls apart here, although no one wants a Samurai spamming Ranged Attacks when they are better off using Gkatana for their adaptability to almost any weaponskill chain.

And no, I wasnt directing my Convert comment at you since, evidently, you understand what it does. From the tone I got, a few individuals seem to think that having HP over your MP isnt a waste of HP, and I felt I had to correct that in the only way they could understand. I'm not going to apoligize twice here, so I'll just pray to Altana that people that dont get it by now leave the job of Converting to others that understand it.

And while many jobs can do SlugShot/Sidewinder at their respective levels, they are not on the level that a RNG can do them with those massively overpowered (damage, TPgain and Ranged Distance-wise) Longbows.

And also I may need to rephrase my statement in light of what you brought up about WAR, SAM, THF, MNK, and BST. Not fully, but keep in mind that no one subs BST , and in many cases, subbing Samurai is like communism- it sounds good until you try it. Moving away from the post a bit, I'm friends with a THF who dabbles in subs outside NIN and was 70THF/WAR at the time I talked to her. Subbing sam may be nice, but with THF, there is no use in having TP if SA or TA is not up.

War gives nice bonuses too, for instance, Aggressor. True, outside kiting and WS usage against bones, I do not see much use in MNK as a sub, but MNKs can often pull hate with steady, constant damage. If a Monk was able to do Focus and cycle that with Aggressor, they would be even more dangerous than they are now.

Finally, you are not giving THF the credit they deserve

While this is one point I cannot contest to, being as THF get unreasonably strong post Dancing Edge (which means they have to drudge through the 40s and 50s, effectively negating my argument on that end.)

I suppose I'm trying to establish that while there are no apparent downsides to raising the cap to 80, upon further look it is a bad idea that would require specific tweaking to make it better.

[Macht]

Definatly, tweaking is the name of the game for all MMOs. Players are always tweaking to reach their ideal max potential and the companies are constantly tweaking their games to make new goals and give new direction to the game.

So they will definatly have to tweak stuff but so far nothing that's 100% to say they won't raise to lv. 80.