[Taskmage]

Some data I put together to try to figure out whether WHM or BLM is a better sub for RDMs.

Here's a table of the spells that become available to you by subbing each job, and when you get them:[CODE]Black Mage RDM/SUB White Mage
------------------------------------------
10 / 5 Barstonra
10 / 5 Banish
12 / 6 Poisona
14 / 7 Barsleepra
14 / 7 Protectra
18 / 9 Barwatera
18 / 9 Paralyna
20 / 10 Barpoisonra
Drain 24 / 12 Barparalyzra
26 / 13 Baraera
28 / 14 Blindna
Stonega 30 / 15 Banishga
Shock 32 / 16 Curaga
Warp 34 / 17 Shellra
34 / 17 Barfira
Rasp 36 / 18 Barblindra
Waterga 38 / 19 Silena
Choke 40 / 20
42 / 21 Barblizzara
Frost 44 / 22
Aeroga 46 / 23 Barsilencera
Burn 48 / 24
Poisonga 48 / 24
Aspir 50 / 25 BaThundera
Tractor 50 / 25
Drown 54 / 27 Protectra II
Firega 56 / 28
Escape 58 / 29 Cursena
60 / 30 Banish II
62 / 31 Curaga II
Blizzaga 64 / 32 Erase
66 / 33 ReRaise
68 / 34 Viruna
Thunderga 72 / 36 Teleport-Dem
72 / 36 Teleport-Holla
72 / 36 Teleport-Mea
74 / 37 Shellra II[/CODE]Based only on extra spells, I'd say WHM is better. Subbing BLM gets you a few utility spells and AoE nukes, but subbing WHM gets you status heals and the more important AoE cures and buffs. Kickbacks for subbing WHM also start earlier, with Poisona at 12 and Protect at 14.

This table shows the stat bonuses from subbing each job vs a RDM with no sub. These are the same for any race.[CODE]Black Mage White Mage Summoner
---------------- LVL 1 -------------------
+ 5 HP + 6 HP + 5 HP
+ 7 MP + 6 MP + 8 MP
+ 1 STR + 1 STR + 1 STR
+ 2 DEX + 1 DEX + 1 DEX
+ 1 VIT + 1 VIT + 1 VIT
+ 2 AGI + 1 AGI + 1 AGI
+ 2 INT + 1 INT + 2 INT
+ 1 MND + 2 MND + 2 MND
+ 1 CHR + 2 CHR + 2 CHR
---------------- LVL18 -------------------
+ 21 HP + 26 HP + 17 HP
+ 27 MP + 22 MP + 32 MP
+ 2 STR + 2 STR + 2 STR
+ 3 DEX + 2 DEX + 2 DEX
+ 2 VIT + 2 VIT + 2 VIT
+ 3 AGI + 2 AGI + 3 AGI
+ 4 INT + 2 INT + 4 INT
+ 2 MND + 4 MND + 4 MND
+ 2 CHR + 3 CHR + 4 CHR
---------------- LVL30 -------------------
+ 36 HP + 44 HP + 28 HP
+ 42 MP + 34 MP + 60 MP
+ 2 STR + 3 STR + 2 STR
+ 4 DEX + 2 DEX + 3 DEX
+ 2 VIT + 3 VIT + 2 VIT
+ 4 AGI + 3 AGI + 3 AGI
+ 6 INT + 3 INT + 5 INT
+ 3 MND + 6 MND + 5 MND
+ 3 CHR + 4 CHR + 5 CHR
---------------- LVL45 -------------------
+ 56 HP + 65 HP + 42 HP
+ 59 MP + 48 MP + 81 MP
+ 3 STR + 5 STR + 3 STR
+ 6 DEX + 3 DEX + 4 DEX
+ 3 VIT + 5 VIT + 3 VIT
+ 6 AGI + 4 AGI + 5 AGI
+ 7 INT + 4 INT + 6 INT
+ 4 MND + 7 MND + 6 MND
+ 5 CHR + 6 CHR + 6 CHR
---------------- LVL60 -------------------
+ 73 HP + 89 HP + 58 HP
+ 79 MP + 64 MP +115 MP
+ 4 STR + 6 STR + 4 STR
+ 7 DEX + 4 DEX + 5 DEX
+ 4 VIT + 6 VIT + 4 VIT
+ 7 AGI + 5 AGI + 6 AGI
+ 9 INT + 5 INT + 8 INT
+ 5 MND + 9 MND + 8 MND
+ 6 CHR + 7 CHR + 8 CHR
---------------- LVL75 -------------------
+ 91 HP +110 HP + 72 HP
+ 97 MP + 78 MP +136 MP
+ 5 STR + 7 STR + 5 STR
+ 9 DEX + 5 DEX + 6 DEX
+ 5 VIT + 7 VIT + 5 VIT
+ 9 AGI + 6 AGI + 7 AGI
+ 11 INT + 6 INT + 10 INT
+ 6 MND + 11 MND + 10 MND
+ 7 CHR + 9 CHR + 10 CHR[/CODE]In the endgame, WHM favors more HP over more MP, and higher STR, VIT, and MND over more INT. At that level, MP and INT are far more important that HP, STR, VIT, and MND, so BLM wins. For some reason, WHM gives worse stat bonuses from levels 1-19, when you'll be doing the most melee, so the WHM leanings toward the important melee stats don't even help you then. For stat bonuses, BLM is the better sub.

Finally the Job Traits table:[CODE]LVL Black Mage White Mage Summoner
---------------------------------------------------------------------
20/10 Magic Attack Bonus Magic Defense Bonus Max MP Boost
30/15 Clear Mind
40/20 Conserve MP Clear Mind Resist Slow
50/25 Auto Regen Auto Refresh
60/30 Magic Attack Bonus Magic Defense Bonus Max MP Boost[/CODE]RDMs already get Magic Attack Bonus 1&2 , Magic Defense Bonus 1&2, and Clear Mind, so the choice is down to Conserve MP (BLM) and Auto Regen (WHM). Conserve MP is obviously better, since if you're doing your job right you'll be casting spells far more often than taking hits.

Unfortunately, after doing that research I find that one isn't clearly better than the other. Personally, I'm going to use WHM, since I think the extra WHM spells are worth the loss of 19 MP, 5 INT, and Conserve MP in the long run.

[Apple Pie]

I find that one isn't clearly better than the other.

Exactly. It really depends on where we go, what we hunt, and how rest of our PT members are like.

Therefore, I think we should level both BLM and WHM to LV37 to be more flexible.

[Weezingpipes]

I like RDM to sub WHM in places where we need status cures ie fighting undead monsters or monsters that do a lot of AE's. RDM Curaga can be a downtime saver for sure. I don't really think the utility spells of a BLM add much to a party - RDM with BLM sub don't nuke tons better, and I've seen Elemental Seal + Silence/Sleep been put to good use, but thats about it. However the MP conservation is important and Aspir is a very good spell - not that RDM tend to have MP issues compared well, anyone. All the good RDM I know manage their MP well and use Convert intelligently to improve the efficiency of the party, and thats regardless of a BLM sub (the more MP efficient sub).

At higher levels I could see WHM being slightly more useful when they can use Erase, frees up the white mage in the party from having to cure the annoying status stuff that sucks a lot at high levels like slow, ATK down etc. It probably does depend what your party is fighting to get the most out of either sub job. If you are just chaining crabs or crawlers for example, most of the WHM utility spells aren't super useful.

[MidnightMystict]

Wow! Great post, was looking for some info on /blm and /whm sub. That made me really keep whm as subjob. Btw, just curious, do you have any info on /smn ? I know i've read/heard obout summoner's isn't worth it as a sub-job but would like to see the stats.
Thanks

[Apple Pie]

It again depends on what you hunt and how your PT is configured but subbing SMN is useful if your RDM is already at LV50 or higher and you at least level your SMN to LV25 (Job Trait: Auto-Refresh).

The reason you wanna take RDM/SMN may be

- You already have BLM/WHM and WHM/BLM in your PT
-- Have enough people to cast Ba-, Curaga, Erase, and -na spells
-- Do not plan to go to the dungeon (no need for Eacape)

- You have 4 or more people to provide with refresh

[Taskmage]

Rather than take up more space, I spliced the SUM info into my original tables. Since SUMs don't get spells the same way, obviously I skipped that part.

SUM really surprised me with stat bonuses. SUM beats both WHM and BLM for MP even before the Max MP Boost job traits. The INT and MND bonuses for a SUM are almost as high as the best bonus that BLM or WHM would give to either. The job traits for a SUM are also a lot better, since they're not redundant with the job traits that a RDM already gets.

@ Apple Pie: I'm sure you're right that it's better to keep both jobs up to date for versatility, but personally I only have so much time to dedicate to playing the game, so I have to choose.

[Tomoh]

Excellent information Well done. /clap

I personally go with BLM sub (WHM LV1).

You earned yourself a stick

[Synbios]

I think it would depend more on your party config, if there's no WHM, /WHM would be better, for the na spells, barstatusna spells are hardly useful, and you won't be using Protectra and Shellra since it would be better to cast your highest level Protect on the tank and the melees. /BLM when there's no BLM for Rasp Frost Drown, - Dex - Agi - Str, as much as many overlook these, I feel that they're very useful, especially when your RNGs are missing sidewinders, Chainspell + Escape is good for sticky situations. There was one incident when my puller came back with a link, I (WHM/BLM) casted escape at where the frontlines are, apparently, the RDM was AFK without notice, and we escaped without him. >.> (I made my macro spam |Gather together| Casting |Escape| thrice with a call in every line) And when the RDM came back like 2 seconds after I'm finished casting, he 2 hred and escape.

[MidnightMystict]

Ooh thanks for the info about /smn maybe i'll try that out for fun some day when i'm lvl 60+. Well my rdm is lvl 43/20whm and jsut got whm to lvl 20 tonight and was wondering is the "clear mind" trait for rdm and whm subbed are stacked?

[Taskmage]

Whoops! Minor correction to make. The +MP stats I posted for SMN do include the Max MP Boost job traits.

Thanks for the stick.

[Discordian]

rdm66/whm33 has Erase I believe.

Excellent table. Good info.

[Jei]

I like Rdm/Whm much more than Blm for low level up to around 50/25. Low level, the ~na spells are really great to have while /blm doesn't really giving anything much.

/15whm for goddess seal, works so good with convert.

/25Blm for MP conserve and frost... just those 2 are really helpful already :D

/29blm for escape... is just so nice.

/31whm for erase is also nice ^^b if you have that spell.

[Alucath]

This is wonderful :O. I think it all comes down to a matter of preference now, and there's no real "White Mage/Black Mage is way better" arguement that a few of my friends tend to make. Me, personally.. I'm going with BLM, I don't have a lot of time to level both WHM and BLM up. But I like BLM, and if a RDM/BLM(me) and a RDM/WHM team up.. it can be great for starting a group ^^.

[Nohar]

Hello ! I'm writing a Guide on the Red Mage : i just want to ask for use your board/picture for use it in my guide. Can i take them ?

[Acidreflux]

My thinking regarding the status heals is that Im almost always gonna be in a pt with a /whm somewhere. blm/whm, brd/whm, sum/whm, just whm, whatever/whm, you get where im going. im the /blm, but i will admit i think over that decision every time i hit the convert macro...