[KoukiRyu]

I'm a strong believer in /NIN other than zergs. If you sub NIN, there's nothing saying you have to dual-wield, I often still use Vulcan's. And you have tons of safety, be it from pulling hate or anything of that sort(AoE's that only wipe some shadows, etc). Plus, you can pull hate sometimes in emergencies if you're the only choice. A couple times in Limbus we almost wiped save a few of us that were out of AoE, including me, and I pulled hate and we were able to kill it. Anyways, there's nothing wrong with subbing NIN, and you won't have much of a problem putting out big numbers whether you sub it or not.

When I go /WAR I always top the parses, first to third, never less than that, and I tend to die as well. But when I sub NIN, I never have much trouble being up there either.

Personally I never sub SAM, but that's cause I don't have it leveled. ~_~ This is probably something I should have done, but I haven't needed it once yet. My leader always wants me subbing WAR or NIN, and none of our other RNGs sub SAM either. I think this is kind of a preference over all, but I would suggest leveling NIN just to be prepared. WAR is for zergs, SAM for whenever you want, and NIN for times when it's necessary, or you need an exceedingly large amount of R.Acc.

This is just my opinion I guess, but a well-geared RNG/NIN is just about unbeatable. I've had a chance to play with a KC in merits and I absolutely raped, although I suppose that's a separate story, cause that goes beyond and above, gear-wise. A well-geared RNG/NIN is gonna pull hate regardless, you don't want to shoot once and then sit there and watch, while you wait for some hate to wear off, you want to be able to hold your own while still putting out numbers. I know you can watch the hateline and all that, but I prefer to feel like I'm doing something, so I tend to shoot a lot.

Anyways, just how I feel about subs, whatever you decide to do, you should have subs ready, and when an LS calls for it, or you feel like it, you can swap it out. I hated NIN as well, and I just powered through it and finished 35-37 with exp scrolls from choco running. Just an idea, good luck.

Also, you can try for a V.bow, if you're able to kill it on another job or get help. I was like 1/36 on him or something, but other people get lucky, just something you can try if you get the chance(I didn't see anyone mention this but I kinda just skimmed).

[Malacite]

After plugging in the numbers, /SAM seems to be only really good with Bows. With just Store TP II and Demon Arrows you will gain just over 20 TP a shot with an Ebow and a little over 22 with Sbow.

I thought it would be good with a gun but actually it turns out to be a total waste since you can't hit 25 TP a shot without sacrificing some critical gear. However if you happen to have a COR in the PT and get SAM's roll go nuts >.>

4-shot build with a Hellfire +1 is scary.

[VZX]

Originally Posted by Malacite

After plugging in the numbers, /SAM seems to be only really good with Bows. With just Store TP II and Demon Arrows you will gain just over 20 TP a shot with an Ebow and a little over 22 with Sbow.

??? You must have gotten SAM's roll.
STP II = 1.15
Rajas = 0.05

Sbow + Demon = 630 delay = 15.2 TP/hit
V/Ebow + Demon = 580 delay = 14.8 TP/hit

In order to get 20 TP/hit with Ebow, you need 16 more STP on top of /SAM and Rajas.
In order to get 22 TP/hit with SBow, you need 25 more STP on top of /SAM and Rajas.

Those numbers are not realistically obtainable with all the gear available right now.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've been away since I've been moving to a new place and all.

If you don't have /WAR, /SAM and /NIN levelled, you're not doing justice to the job.

Laying it out simply:

/NIN for highest accuracy potential and Utsusemi.

/WAR for highest raw damage. Berzerk - Need I say more? People tend to exaggerate when you can start using this subjob. In fact, they're getting their wires crossed with their STR/Ranged Attack build information. STR/Ranged Attack builds.

/SAM let's you WS more often with some degree of protection, it also helps you gain +5 STR from Hasso. Downside is you won't have Hasso til higher levels and no Meditate til 60. This is a high level sub for zergs, just like WAR.

I personally still prefer /WAR and /SAM over /NIN. I've got nothing against /NIN when I need the accuracy, but then, I'm a major accuracy whore, so its seldom a problem. As for safety, I never really give a damn about it since I never run the risk of delevelling, /SAM's Seigan is only screwed where magic comes into play, but if its AoE magic, its just as screwed as anyone else.

[CS_911]

Originally Posted by VZX

??? You must have gotten SAM's roll.
STP II = 1.15
Rajas = 0.05

Sbow + Demon = 630 delay = 15.2 TP/hit
V/Ebow + Demon = 580 delay = 14.8 TP/hit

In order to get 20 TP/hit with Ebow, you need 16 more STP on top of /SAM and Rajas.
In order to get 22 TP/hit with SBow, you need 25 more STP on top of /SAM and Rajas.

Those numbers are not realistically obtainable with all the gear available right now.

ok at lvl 60 with no +store tp gear, i get 19 tp in first shot, i get 19 tp back from ws, but then again im using gun.

[aegina]

Originally Posted by CS_911

ok at lvl 60 with no +store tp gear, i get 19 tp in first shot, i get 19 tp back from ws, but then again im using gun.

By comparison, at 60~65 as /nin with no store TP gear, I'm getting 16 TP a shot with a gun.

[Szkol]

Thought I'd post a small update- for anyone that was curious-

I've made it into a a few colibri parties now, and I've been as both /SAM and /NIN.


I played around with food/gear choices for both subs as well. on /NIN accuracy wasn't an issue very often, and having dual archer's knives allowed me to full-time both of my STR+ rings for the majority of the party. I ate meat as /NIN, which gave a pretty good damage boost, and with Velocity shot and food buffs both up, I was hitting 114-117 per shot. Very little variance. Flaming arrow would hit for 151 damage almost every time, and added TP didn't increase the damage terribly much. Once I started doing sidewinders, the damage varied between 720 - 745 or so.

I was fairly pleased with that setup.


As /SAM using the Fire Staff my accuracy was NOT reliable using just my Racc rings, and so I needed to use Racc food. With Racc food, however, I was able to full time my STR rings for the entire duration of the party. Per hit damage wasn't increased terribly much (velocity shot, Hasso both up)- about 10 points per shot, so 124-127, with almost no variance.

Where /SAM was really nice was in the WS damage- Flaming arrow at 105% TP could net me anywhere from 170 damage - 230 damage. Increased TP seemed to make a bigger difference as /SAM and my top Flamin arrow 279 i think.

I didn't get to sidewinder much as /SAM, unfortunately the party ended. I think I got off 2 before it did though, both upwards of 760 damage.


I would have a little more info on Sidewinders /SAM, but before I joined another party I realized I had run up against my level cap... again ><- so more information later. I think level 58 Hunter's Jerkin may boost my Racc enough to be able to eat meat as /SAM. Time will tell, I suppose.

[Mezlo]

I was interested. Please feel free to post more once you find more out.

[aegina]

same here

Keep us informed on how things go^^

[Szkol]

I just got set up with a parser as well- so hopefully I'll have actual statistics for you as well-

Might take some time though- I need to finish my 60 cap Maat quest before I don anything else- and I'm having trouble finding help. But yes, soon as I get XP'ing again I'll post some more information.

[CS_911]

Originally Posted by Szkol

Thought I'd post a small update- for anyone that was curious-

I've made it into a a few colibri parties now, and I've been as both /SAM and /NIN.


I played around with food/gear choices for both subs as well. on /NIN accuracy wasn't an issue very often, and having dual archer's knives allowed me to full-time both of my STR+ rings for the majority of the party. I ate meat as /NIN, which gave a pretty good damage boost, and with Velocity shot and food buffs both up, I was hitting 114-117 per shot. Very little variance. Flaming arrow would hit for 151 damage almost every time, and added TP didn't increase the damage terribly much. Once I started doing sidewinders, the damage varied between 720 - 745 or so.

I was fairly pleased with that setup.


As /SAM using the Fire Staff my accuracy was NOT reliable using just my Racc rings, and so I needed to use Racc food. With Racc food, however, I was able to full time my STR rings for the entire duration of the party. Per hit damage wasn't increased terribly much (velocity shot, Hasso both up)- about 10 points per shot, so 124-127, with almost no variance.

Where /SAM was really nice was in the WS damage- Flaming arrow at 105% TP could net me anywhere from 170 damage - 230 damage. Increased TP seemed to make a bigger difference as /SAM and my top Flamin arrow 279 i think.

I didn't get to sidewinder much as /SAM, unfortunately the party ended. I think I got off 2 before it did though, both upwards of 760 damage.


I would have a little more info on Sidewinders /SAM, but before I joined another party I realized I had run up against my level cap... again ><- so more information later. I think level 58 Hunter's Jerkin may boost my Racc enough to be able to eat meat as /SAM. Time will tell, I suppose.

sounds cool but one thing wrong, youre not suppost to sub /sam until 60, cause thats when you get the good stuff, just lke sam/rng, not worth subbing until lvl 57 when you get side winder, now, i have good r acc gear and subbing /sam is not an issue as long as u use r acc food, for /nin i use subs, wich makes my gun hit at lvl 58 from 170- 203+, and makes my side winders 1k-1200 and my barrage from 900-1k. but like i said i dont like arrows so im a full time gun user, but now that gil is low cause of me lending gil to people im startting to use arrows, which is capped for a while since i used it for sam/rng. (these numbers are based on a lvl sync pt of 58, was 59 at the time)

One cool thing is, with /nin when im at 100 tp or more , i use sharp, barrage, velocity and do ws--> barrage hit and if all bullets hit i normally dish out another ws and that kills the coli almost in an instant depending when you do it, i did it a lil after i started the fight and once i was done the fight was over, but got to watch out for that dam tp eating from bird, so you have to be very fast on it. This is at lvl 58.

now, lvl 60, i did notice that i get more tp return from sam which was 19 on first shot, and 19 tp on a sidewinder, also i get to 100 tp supper fast with out using med, one thing i learn from sam/rng, is not to use med as youre doing ws, i always missed when i did, might just be me. If youre not scared of dying, like me, and if you regulate your shots this sub is good. People complain about you getting hit, screw them, thats the healers job and he only has one e-z job to do, also makes it fun and exciting, plus birds die so fast it shouldnt even be an issue.

On a final note if its one thing i learned, theres a place and a time for everything, its ok to experiment on pts, but please when the time comes, when it deals with missions and with bcnms and everything else that is very important like end games stuff and such, please sub what the leaders want you to sub, not cause they hate you or anything but, because it makes it a lil bit ez for the pt when fighting a nm that takes 45 min or more to kill, which is when /nin does come in handy.

Also i want to say, that all the numbers i put up where from using gun. I used archery today and wow, big huge diff in dmg. lol

Gear
/sam
fire staff, mithril grip +1
af hat, jagd gorget,drone earring, vision earing
af boddy, akinji bazubands, scorpion ring +1 *2
amemet mantle+1, royal knight's belt+1, jaridah salvars, akinji nails
*note, if food isnt helpping try thunderer's mantle which gives +4 r acc, may help just a bit.

/nin
same as above except for i use the daggers *2 and use coeurl subs instead of sushie.

for guns
( take note that im only lvl 61 right now)

lvl 60+ fourth gun, could use the shark gun, dont know the name on top of my head,
lvl sync below 60 musketeer gun +1, i like to some times switch between that and serpentine gun. For rounds i just use silver bullet, cause thats all there is on ah lol, and they are pretty good on dmg too.
______________________________
ps, for got to say i hit a bird for 230 today as lvl sync 57. lol
______________________________
lol aegina you look cute with your rdm outfit

[Szkol]

I partied today, they requested that I come /NIN so I did. So unfortunately no /SAM info, but I can say that I know have firsthand knowledge of why people say to go /NIN:

I think it was a combination of things:

1) Our tank wasn't the greatest
2) Maybe not all the tank's Fault, NIN tank is just 100% inferior to PLD at Colibri
3) There was a BRD in the party
4) I found out that I have indeed moved past Dhalmel pies, and can use Coeurl subs for a much larger benefit
5) Those crazy hate-shedding DRGs

Basic setup was like this: I pull and run back to the camp, and the bird totally ignores our NIN's voke. I proceed to lose all of my shadows and take 2 hits before the DRG takes hate. The DRG's routine every fight is : whack the mob twice, Penta-Thrust, then Super Jump to shed hate. Sometimes after the Super-jump I would regain hate, and sometimes the NIN tank would be able to keep it. By now the mob is at 70% health or so and I have to wait until it drops to 60% before I can safely fire a round and not steal hate back. Normally I can fire 3 - 4 shots on a mob if I don't want to take hate away.

The other side of this coin, is that with Minuet (i think?) and Coeurl Subs, my 115 per shot as /NIN has turned into an average 180 per shot.

What could have helped, IMO, is if the tank threw out more elemental wheel spells. Those really seemed to help him out a lot, and I'm not quite sure why he didn't use those more than he did.

The DRG topped the parse, but with me close behind. With new food and buffs, my average sidewinder was nearly 1200. Accuracy was good as well, 88% on normal shots, 86% on weaponskills- which I'm happy with.


I can say with confidence though, that if I had come /SAM to this party my numbers would have been through the roof, but I would have been dead in the dirt. A dead ranger does no damage, as they say. However, I think with a better tank, /SAM could have still be viable. My weaponskills were able to bring down anywhere between 20-35% of the mobs HP, depending on food and buffs. /SAM would have raised that even higher.

On a fun note, BRD gave use double Minuet to play around with- and to tease the tank :D

Sidewinder for 1900.

Anyways, what I'm starting to see is that RNG subjob really might be even more situational than we think- and maybe different subjobs simply for different XP situations might be in order.


On a side note, the DRG and the BRD were both merited RNG's and they said that you still see the occasional arrow burn party around. That seems like the kind of thing that might be super sweet on birds, anyone know how common these are? I thought Arrow burn was long gone.

[Mog]

Originally Posted by Szkol

2) Maybe not all the tank's Fault, NIN tank is just 100% inferior to PLD at Colibri

You would be correct. Bird tanking on ninja is not easy by any means. Without a thief in the party, it's very easy to lose hate on ninja, unless you're just loaded with +enm. Even then, with a drg and a rng in the party for birds, it's very easy to lose hate without a thief.

Originally Posted by Szkol

What could have helped, IMO, is if the tank threw out more elemental wheel spells. Those really seemed to help him out a lot, and I'm not quite sure why he didn't use those more than he did.

Technically, you shouldn't need the elemental wheel when you get high enough. All I use is the 3 enfeebles, voke, berserk, and I'm usually good on hate.

Originally Posted by Szkol

On a side note, the DRG and the BRD were both merited RNG's and they said that you still see the occasional arrow burn party around. That seems like the kind of thing that might be super sweet on birds, anyone know how common these are? I thought Arrow burn was long gone.

They're not that common anymore. If they were more common, I would start one up, but I don't see any. : (

[Szkol]

I got to party last night as RNG/SAM 56,

Party setup was RNG PLD COR DRK THF RDM- so no damage buffs here other than Velocity Shot and Hasso, though having Hunter's Roll was pretty sweet.

Average shot damage was 170, average WS damage was 1100+ Normal shot accuracy was 99% and WS accuracy was 90%

I will admit that Hunter's Roll helped a lot (on a side note, this must have been the luckiest COR ever, he hit 4 on Hunter's roll prob 80% of the time).

My equipment setup was the following:

Fire Staff
Mythril Grip +1
War Bow +1
Scorpion Arrow
Hunter's Beret
Ranger Necklace
Drone x2
Noct+1 for Body/Hands/Legs
Leaping Boots
Thunderer's Mantle
RK Belt +1
Sun Ring x2 (Victory rings are super rare on my server, it seems)

Used Sole Sushi for food.


So with buffs and food, I was able to add +23 STR I think, which is pretty significant. I think once I get Hunter's Jerkin, I can use that plus Scorpion Rings+1 for enough Racc, and possibly be able to use attack food, which I think would put my damage at 200+ per shot.

The really sweet news was the WS damage- it stayed fairly consistent between 1000-1200, with the hi/low being right around 800/1400.


My last parse on /NIN when i had the BRD still beat out my per shot damage, but I think that if you take minuet out of the picture, /SAM beats /NIN by a good deal with the per shot damage. Also with Meditate at 60, I think will really help out as well, since it looks as though around 1/3 of my damage is coming from WS

[nanatsu]

Meh, post edited cause I fail at reading.