[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Mog

Uhh, you're thinking about sam/rng. Soboro cannot be used by rng main. sam/rng != rng/sam

learn 2 read? I explicitly stated SAM/RNG, which is what the OP asked about.


EDIT: Argh wtf somehow I got it all backwards, thought he was asking about SAM/RNG... I blame the Vodka this morning, sorry.

[Yellow Mage]

[Szkol]

Originally Posted by Lunaryn

Anyway, most people in this game have jobs that just really rub them the wrong way. The more averse you are to it, though, the more independent and forceful you're going to have to be in setting up situations, the more important it will be for you to establish a reputation for excellence with your chosen methods, and the more shit you will have to take from anyone who hasn't seen your own personal brand of awesome yet.

I sort of anticipated this- and while I don't always have the absolute best available gear, I make sure that my gear is better than most, if I can at all help it. For example, one piece I won't compromise on is the E-bow - I fully intend to start using the instant I turn 55, even if that means taking a month off XPing as RNG to make the money to afford it. There are certain other pieces that I feel are make-it-or-break-it pieces, that I'll make sure to get, for the routes I take. If not having a certain piece or a combination of pieces makes me play the job poorly, then I won't play the job.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Szkol

For example, one piece I won't compromise on is the E-bow

Actually, while I applaud you for this (I'm taking the same stance with my RNG) there is the S-bow as an alternative. It's slightly weaker in DPS but is far, far easier to obtain if you don't mind waiting an extra 5 levels.

[Szkol]

Yeah there are alternatives- but none of them are the E-Bow.

What I love about the E-Bow is that it's your final weapon, no more upgrading every 5-10 levels, and no wondering to yourself if slightly better equips are worth the 1 mil difference in price (Fire vs. Vulcan Staff, or Amemet vs. Amemet +1). Once you have the E-bow, not only are you going to be rocking at lv 55, you'll be rocking at 75 too.

[Malacite]

Actually, the DPS difference is something like 0.3 I believe it's not that noticeable, particularly when you have the full on Ranged Attack boost.

Ebow does shoot a little faster and has that nice STR mod but it's not a huge deal. And technically, Yoichinoyumi would be your final bow. My point is if it becomes a huge hassle no one is going to ride your ass for using S-Bow since the 2 are so closely matched.

Obow on the other hand, is the ultimate Xbow (barring the Mythic and possibly Machine) and shouldn't be skipped. The NM isn't anywhere near as bad as Eastern Shadow either, and for guns you're more or less set with a hellfire +1. Doesn't hurt to pick up a Culverin though for the odd burst of Cannon Shells.

By the same token, don't let anyone give you shit for not having a Vulcan's Staff instead of Fire. Oh noes, 1 STR...

BLM and SMN can just barely justify spending millions on that thing, but that kind of money can go towards much better things for a RNG. (And yes I'm aware that fSTR scales differently for ranged attacks but 3-5 million gil for 1 more point of STR is retarded)

[Mog]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Actually, the DPS difference is something like 0.3 I believe it's not that noticeable, particularly when you have the full on Ranged Attack boost.

I think 1% of the time, Selene's bow will outparse E-bow due to the moon phase. However, E-bow is consistent ranged attack, whereas Selene's bow adjusts ranged attack and ranged accuracy according to the moon phase. Once you have decent accuracy and merits, there's no reason in pouring ranged accuracy on the bow, hence E-bow will generally be better. The STR and AGI on it are just extra bonuses.

Vulcan's staff isn't 3-5 million either. o_O It used to be, but right now it's sitting at 500k. If you don't have the gil for the HQ, that's allright. The HQ staff is more of a luxury than anything. I would save up for other important gear before you start worrying about HQ staff.

[Malacite]

Eh 500k will still buy you a hell of a lot of ammo >.>

[Szkol]

Yeah I will definitely not sweat it on those HQ pieces where hundreds of thousands of gil mean a +/- 1 STR or w/e difference. I'll be sitting with my Ebow and a Fire Staff and NQ Amemet, thank you very much.

I very very much doubt if I'll go for my Relic Weapon, and tbh, I think getting AF+1 is currently beyond my scope as well. I''d like to do that kind of stuff, sure, but I can't make that sort of time commitment at this point. Well I still have a little ways off before I hit 51 RNG, but once I get going maybe I'll update and let everyone in on how well I do RNG/SAM. It sounds viable, so I'm going to give it a shot.

[Spider-Dan]

/NIN is, pre-70, the best SJ for RNG by a large margin. Choosing not to level it is ultimately self-defeating, but it's your money/rep to waste.

That being said, at 75, I sub SAM the majority of the time. In most situations, /SAM has defense that is just a little worse than /NIN (but miles better than /WAR) and offense that is equivalent to /WAR (but significantly better than /NIN). It's unfortunate that you've already written off marksmanship (I personally believe that a 5-shot gun+/SAM build is one of RNG's strongest options), but archery works well with with /SAM, also.

Regarding Hasso/Seigan: the only time I ever use Hasso is when I'm about to take a screenshot. RNG does not get enough benefit from Hasso to make it worth using; I just fulltime Seigan and call it a day.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

/NIN is, pre-70, the best SJ for RNG by a large margin. Choosing not to level it is ultimately self-defeating, but it's your money/rep to waste.

Please just stop right there. NIN is certainly a good choice, but by no means the "best". There is no "best" SJ for any job, because that implies that all others are moot by comparison.

NIN is a security blanket and little more. Dual Wielding a second ranged accuracy dagger/axe is nice but doesn't make up for the lost attack power from /WAR or TP gain from /SAM.

A good RNG/WAR knows how to ride the hate line and when to go all out. Choose your sub based on what you're fighting and relative skill.

[Caspian]

The final accuracy trait at 70 does make a huge difference, though. Before that you will have more trouble hitting the mob with as much reliability. Being able to dual-wield two r. acc. weapons helps considerably pre-70. Berserk is great, but the extra damage doesn't do you any good when you miss.

[Malacite]

I still say it's over kill.

+25% Attack vs another +13 accuracy at most (Hawker +1) when you should already have +22 racc from traits by that level plus your necklace, rings and noct gear.

RNG has a tonne of accuracy available to it and while hit rate is important I find the gains from berserk outweigh the marginal accuracy boost from a second dagger.

[aegina]

So, judging by the last few posts, the final answer would be that for rng, /war, /sam, and /nin are all 3 viable subs, and you can choose for yourself whichever one works best for you?

60 ranger here, up and coming, was wondering this very thing the op asked. Currently, I'm doing /nin only because I already had it leveled. Once I get to 75 (if not before,) I plan to take all 3 subs to 37 and make up my mind for myself, but I just wanted to hear what everybody else thought.

[Szkol]

This is pretty much how I see the pros and cons of /war /sam and /nin

/NIN:
+ Dual Wield (very easy way to tack on extra R.Acc)
+ AGI - NIN will get you more AGI than either SAM or WAR will, and RNG WS are weighted towards AGI
+ Ninjutsu- Utsusemi is a fantastic tool for when you steal hate, or even when making a long pull. You could even toss out an enfeeble here or there
- Lacks in STR, which impacts your R.Att
- Dual Wield is moot if you want use the Fire Staff at Lv 51
-Utsusemi is largely moot if you know better than to cross the hate threshold

/WAR
+Berserk- That really says it all. HUGE damage boost.
+ Attack Bonus- Access to this trait at 60- damage boost
0 Warcry- I don't know where to put this for WAR- not sure if it helps R.Att, but it def. makes a lot of hate.
- No survivabilty options (oh right, DefenderLOL)
-No Dual Wield, no Abilties that make use of a 2h weapon

/SAM
+Hasso - All this will do for RNG is give a moderate STR boost
+ Third Eye/Seigan - Survivability- it's not Utsusemi, but it helps
+ Meditate - FREE TP! No drawbacks here, this is just a money JA to have
+ Store TP Trait- You need the right amount of Store TP from equips to make it work really well, but again, bonus TP. Nothing bad about this.
- RNG won't benefit from the Att+ or the Haste bonus from Hasso
- No AGI
-No Extra Accuracy

Now just so it's out there, lets look at some of the benefits of RNG

RNG/???

+Velocity Shot- Increases R.Att and decreases R.Att Delay (if you're melee'ing for TP you'll have Att - and Increased Att delay)
+ Accuracy Traits



And here's how I see the big picture.

RNG/NIN is very solid and an easy choice. Grants more AGI, which is good for WS, and also helps your R.Acc. The real benefits are Ninjutsu and Dual Wield for extra R.Acc in your sub equipment slot. It's def. a VERY easy build as far as R.Acc is concerned, but lacks STR, which is a big part in R.Att damage. Velocity Shot will help this a little bit.

RNG/WAR very easily solves the problem of too little STR and slightly lacking damage. In fact it's on the complete opposite end of the specturm- your normal attacks will do a good deal more per hit, but once you add in Berserk and Attack Bonus Traits you'll be dealing some pretty crazy spike damage. If you're riding the hate line properly, this means you'll pull and shoot once in the middle of the battle, and maybe twice at the end. All this damage doesn't really make great use of Velocity shot, and Barrage used even slightly improperly is a deathwish.

RNG/SAM
While not as much as WAR, SAM sub still helps solve the lack of STR problem. In addition, this sub makes the best use of a Fire Staff Build. You'll get an additional STR boost from Hasso with Fire Staff equipped, in addition to the +10 R.Att from the Staff. You don't get Haste and Attack bonus from Hasso, but you do get that from Velocity Shot. You also get Meditate, which is an extra 60 TP every 3 minutes, and Store TP, which, if used right, is going to help you squeeze in additional Sidewinders over time. Finally, you get Third Eye, an ability similar to Utsusemi, and Seigan, which halves the 3rdEye recast ONLY if a 2h weapon is equipped (thanks Fire Staff!) I see this build as having a good amount of power, though not as much as WAR, which is going to let you deal a little less spike damage but a little more DPS, in addition to getting in the extra Sidewinder here and there. Like /WAR, you still need to work in some R.Acc somewhere, but lets face it, there's tons of great food out there for R.Acc, and not as much great food for R.Att.