Rng/brd???

[OWA_900]

Would there be any cool and actual good benefits from this combo? Or would it just be all bad? Would appreciate some descriptive reasons please, thanks.

[Sabaron]

When at low level, I use BRD and PUP subs for their nifty powers.
If you configure your puppet as a Refreshed Backup Healer, you don't have to rest as much. The same goes for using Paeon with /BRD.

I don't know why a single gimped buff would be of much use in general over the bonuses that you would get from say.... Utsusemi.

[EDIT: NVM]
Not thinking... SATA doesn't work with Ranged Attacks... SAM might be nice though, but I think Dual Archers/Hawkers is probably the best thing a RNG can add with sub-job--it's very nice to have all that extra Accuracy.

[Intensity]

I can't imagine the single Minuet you could get @ 30+ could compare to the extra damage you'd get from Zerk and the RACC+ you'd get from Prelude wouldn't do more than the +20-22 from Archers/Hawkers instead of subbing NIN so no, I couldn't think of a reason it'd make you a better RNG. Below 30, who knows. =P

[Caspian]

Pre-24, I can't think of a reason that /brd would be all that bad. Paeon is nice and would actually probably be of use to your party. The accuracy bonus from /DRG doesn't stack with RNG's innate accuracy bonus. Iirc, boost doesn't affect ranged attacks, and you wouldn't get enough mp from a mage healing job to really be of any use. Stat differences from subs are minimal at that level too. Crap, the more you look at it, /brd early on is a pretty decent sub. Keep in mind though, it becomes arguably worse at 24, then again at 28, and definately 3rd rate at 30.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

RNG/BRD - Ranger that thinks he's a Corsair.
COR/NIN - Corsair that thinks he's a Ranger.
COR/RNG - Accomplishes what you're looking for

Anyway, while lots of subjobs can work pre-30 and no one really cares at that level, past 30 I'd look at /WAR and /NIN a bit more seriously for long-term RNG EXP and even /WHM for some instances in endgame (partially to boost MND for holy bolts, but also just for survivability). I've heard talk of /SAM, but have yet to see any good results to justify it post-update.

/WAR's benefits are obvious - Berserk past 30 and Warcry at 70, we lose very little in the way of accuracy with single-weilding a knife or axe. Attack Bonus trait at 60 as well with this sub.

/NIN gives you Dual Wield for addictional ranged accuracy bonuses, Utsusemi for fast mobs or when you pull big hate.

/BRD... one song, no instrument and the buff is about 1/3rd or less the power of BRD main's buffs since BRD main has the ability to stack two songs with the use of instruments exclusively. Mages like to rave about being able to use Ballad with /BRD post-50, but Evoker's Roll makes it seem like tablescraps due to its superior duration.

If you want ranged attacks and buffs, I'd go COR long term.
If you want high damaging ranged attacks, sub WAR or NIN for RNG.

The bonuses /BRD could give are but a trifle compared to what food would do. On the other hand, food looks like a trifle compared to what buffs BRD main does.

As for COR/RNG - almost all the fun toys of RNG, with higher damage than COR/NIN, more accuracy than COR/NIN and no loss in buff potency. Barrage, Sharpshot, Wide Scan, Camoflage and Scavange are nice things to have.

[Caspian]

I've heard talk of /SAM, but have yet to see any good results to justify it post-update.

Tangent, here we go: I've read some accounts of it, post 70 it can be pretty impressive. Seigan + Third Eye makes for a quasi Utsusemi, and the addition of Store TP and Meditate are supposed to make it pretty impressive in DoT. I don't have SAM lvl'd high enough at this point, but I'll prolly start leveling it pretty soon and give it a whirl.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Tangent, here we go: I've read some accounts of it, post 70 it can be pretty impressive. Seigan + Third Eye makes for a quasi Utsusemi, and the addition of Store TP and Meditate are supposed to make it pretty impressive in DoT. I don't have SAM lvl'd high enough at this point, but I'll prolly start leveling it pretty soon and give it a whirl.

Yeah, but those bonuses only apply with two-handed weapons in play. I've yet to hear if applies to bow, gun or Xbow in hand or if that literally means staves, great katana, lance, great axe, scythe and great sword. Of all those, we can equip staves, but have no native stave skill to draw from.

Hasso and Seigan would be nice if we knew they really worked, but it really only sounds applicable with a STR build and I'd think we'd still benefit more from /WAR or /NIN with such a build. /SAM updated seems directed more to SAM, DRG, DRK and WAR's benefit though I've still yet to see any WAR try it aside from people on Alla and KI who yelp once they get hit and go running back to /NIN.

Store TP and Meditate I won't deny the benefits of, even though we're pretty much TP whores left to our own devices.

[Lmnop]

Tangent continued, here we go: Is this wielding a Fire Staff or something? you need a 2-handed weapon for Seigan, can't think of anything else. Meanwhile, the Fire Staff would be quite kick ass for your damage already. o0

EDIT: Bbq posted just as I did. It'd have to be staff. Bows take 2 hands to fire, but the game runs based on slots, of course. Can't Weapon Bash with a bow. Hasso would be mostly worthless (no testing as to whether or not the +10 acc would also be ranged acc), but the full time seigan defense could be quite effective. For the rangers that melee often and run back for WS, this combo wouldn't have a significant impact on tp gain, since as Omgwtfbbqkitten pointed, no natural staff skill.

[Caspian]

I've seen ss's Spider-Dan has posted on KI, and it seems to be rather impressive. I'm not sure what main weapons he was using though, so he may have been using a stave.
I also don't know what it looks like at 75 meriting parties, but at my level if I eat meat (I've mentioned it on another thread) then I don't see any reduction in damage inside melee range. Now if I use sushi, yes, I see the usual 10% reduction, but not with coeurl subs.
I'll have to ask Dan what weapon he was mainhanding, and also may have to parse some pt's with one /sam and seigan, and another rng /war or /nin (perhaps both) with axes and or daggers. Interested to see how it all turns out, as well as how much store tp /sam gives, and how much gear it would take to take off a full shot required to reach 100% with Ebow, Sbow, and Obow. (Like how I keep making up work for someone with access to all this at 75 to do?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've seen ss's Spider-Dan has posted on KI, and it seems to be rather impressive. I'm not sure what main weapons he was using though, so he may have been using a stave.
I also don't know what it looks like at 75 meriting parties, but at my level if I eat meat (I've mentioned it on another thread) then I don't see any reduction in damage inside melee range. Now if I use sushi, yes, I see the usual 10% reduction, but not with coeurl subs.
I'll have to ask Dan what weapon he was mainhanding, and also may have to parse some pt's with one /sam and seigan, and another rng /war or /nin (perhaps both) with axes and or daggers. Interested to see how it all turns out, as well as how much store tp /sam gives, and how much gear it would take to take off a full shot required to reach 100% with Ebow, Sbow, and Obow. (Like how I keep making up work for someone with access to all this at 75 to do?)

Well, I've stopped going to KI and Alla after all the spyware, keyloggers and viruses I got from them on my PC recently (not saying they were directly to blame all of it, they just seem to have poor security... and poor moderation).

I guess the question I'm trying to drive at here is this: Do the staves really count with Seigan and Hasso or does our non-existant stave skill negate the ability to take advantage of those new abilites? If staves work, how does /SAM stack up against /WAR and /NIN in DoT? We already know that the 5% Haste Hasso would give wouldn't do anything for us as a RNG, so its the other aspects I'm curious about.

Telling me how something works on VT mobs in merit is like giving me a chocolate cake, I know chocolate cake is going to taste good no matter what. Its chocolate cake. I want to know how /SAM affects RNG during the main course (50-73), not dessert.

[Icemage]

I'm not really convinced that RNG/SAM with an elemental staff is going to be superior to /WAR's damage. From the information available in the SAM forums here, Hasso seems to give SAM level / 7 in STR, +10% Haste, +10 Accuracy. The Haste is pointless with ranged attacks. +10 Accuracy is nice if it adds to your ranged, but I can't begin to think how to test that aside from lots of boomerang tossing...

At level 51 (no point at 50, since you can't wield an elemental staff) we're looking at RNG/SAM getting:
+3 STR (Hasso)
Zanshin (lol)
Plus a tiny bit of Store TP.

Doesn't seem worth it at that point.

You'd pick up Meditate and Third Eye at 60/30, Seigan at 70/35. I could maybe see a case for this at 70 once you have Seigan as a defensive option too, but up to that point it seems rather sketchy.

By the by, while we're talking about using staves, wouldn't Thunder Staff's +15% Critical Hit be more effective than the +10 Ranged Attack from Fire Staff if you're a ranger?


Icemage

[Caspian]

By the by, while we're talking about using staves, wouldn't Thunder Staff's +15% Critical Hit be more effective than the +10 Ranged Attack from Fire Staff if you're a ranger?
Icemage

Think it all boils down to ranged criticals being fairly gimp compared to melee's crits. Really can't say how much of a shot to shot damage difference vulcan's makes, but when crits are super rare to begin with, even with a 15% increase in crits, I don't know that it would be better than the 5 or so damage you get every shot with vulcan's. (Hope this makes sense, its late and I'm tired.)

[VZX]

Not to mention our ranged attack is not as fast as ninja's katana / monk's fist / thief's dagger
crit+ is truly beneficial for jobs I mentioned above due to they hit so often in fight
more hits -> more chance for crit to occur -> higher damage

[Icemage]

Not to mention our ranged attack is not as fast as ninja's katana / monk's fist / thief's dagger
crit+ is truly beneficial for jobs I mentioned above due to they hit so often in fight
more hits -> more chance for crit to occur -> higher damage

The difference is in the damage gain per critical, not how often you land hits.


Icemage

[Version2.32]

to OP: RNG/BRD is useless at lv 20+ ( myself havent tried it lv10-15+) due to the fact that you can cast only one song, and each song will take most of ur time that you should probably be shooting the exp mob in & you are losing the beneffits from other
sub jobs like NIN for dual weild(more tp) and shadows(save pt's mp) and /WAR for berserk and what so