Test: /check is based on net accuracy, not weapon skill

[Spider-Dan]

Yet another set of testing screenshots I found buried in my website.

Here's me, a 75RNG/NIN, checking some Seeker Bats (LV25-27) in Qufim:



Here's the gear I was wearing:



As you can see, I'm wielding a Trick Staff II. Neither RNG nor NIN get any staff skill, so my weapon skill in this circumstance is 0 (for the record, my true staff skill with staff-capable jobs is also 0).

And just to show you that I was hitting it like it was low evasion, not just checking it as such:



I know that this is old information to many of the members of this forum, but I obviously had to perform this test at some point because someone didn't believe me, so I figured that I might as well relate the proof just in case anyone else is ever in a similar discussion.

[Taskmage]

A lot of people still don't know or accept this is the case. If I had a nickel for every time I had to break up this arguement:

I told you not to pull any IT++!
This one's only IT+
I just checked it myself it's IT++

.. I'd have about fifteen cents. I was observing this effect earlier tonight by checking a mob, eating my sushi, then checking it again. IT high def became IT high def, low evasion. I don't think squid sushi modifies weapon skill, so the check has to be based on your accuracy stat.

[Caspian]

I know the RNG accuracy job trait is playing some role, but even the what is it 40? accuracy can't make that much of a difference, so I see what you're talking about.

[Spider-Dan]

The ACC+48 I am getting is making a difference.

I have 0 staff skill, which means that all of my accuracy is derived directly from DEX, gear, food, and traits. 73 DEX gives 36 ACC, and I've got ACC+34 in gear in that setup. If I remove my ACC gear, it'll check as "normal evasion" (no message), as I recall.

[Caspian]

I'm sorry, just seem to be having a hard time wrapping my mind around this for some reason.
Here's what I think I understand, let me know if its right or if I'm missing something else.:
/check is determined solely on DEX, gear, traits and food, but the actual ingame checks for hit/miss also includes the accuracy based on your skill with the weapon.
Here's what I'm curious about.:
In another thread it was found that attack food only boost your base strength (weapon dmg + weapon skill (and maybe str, can't remember). It does not increase attack from gear or berserk etc. (not sure about job traits like war's atk up, maybe someone has a test from that) But does accuracy food increase based on everything? (gear, traits, abilities, and weapon skill)(Honestly, I'm not even sure how testable this is.)
I realize this doesn't necessarily lie w/in the scope of your testing, but it seems like a semi-natural extension of it based on other things that have been tested.

[Intensity]

What it boils down to is this.

In a /check, whether the mob cons as low eva or high eva is dependant solely on your total ACC+ and not at all with your weapon skill lvl. Now, whether that same mob cons as high def or low def is dependant solely on your skill level with your currently equipped weapon and I believe your total ATK+ (Which your weapon skill directly affects). Pretty sure the check is your acc vs. the mobs eva and your weapon skill lvl vs. the mobs def. That's what I've always understood it to be anyway.

Your stats and the mobs stats can affect both of these tho. High/Low eva check is affected by your dex vs. mobs agi and High/Low def is your str vs. the vit of the mob.

[Caspian]

Kk, thats atleast part of what I understood.
Now if only SE would display our accuracy, and while they're at it our ranged attack and ranged accuracy too.

[Armando]

In a /check, whether the mob cons as low eva or high eva is dependant solely on your total ACC+ and not at all with your weapon skill lvl. Now, whether that same mob cons as high def or low def is dependant solely on your skill level with your currently equipped weapon and I believe your total ATK+ (Which your weapon skill directly affects). Pretty sure the check is your acc vs. the mobs eva and your weapon skill lvl vs. the mobs def. That's what I've always understood it to be anyway.

Check only takes two things into consideration: Attack vs Defense, and Accuracy vs Evasion. Skill, STR and DEX can affect /check by adding to your Attack and Accuracy, but aren't actually a factor that /check considers. i.e. The mob can check Low Defense even if it has 50 more VIT than you have STR. In the end it's all about your total Attack and Accuracy.

Nice test Spider-Dan, some people could use that info ^^

[Intensity]

Check only takes two things into consideration: Attack vs Defense, and Accuracy vs Evasion. Skill, STR and DEX can affect /check by adding to your Attack and Accuracy, but aren't actually a factor that /check considers. i.e. The mob can check Low Defense even if it has 50 more VIT than you have STR. In the end it's all about your total Attack and Accuracy.

Nice test Spider-Dan, some people could use that info ^^

That's why I added it as a side-note but thank you for clarifying.

[Spider-Dan]

/check is determined solely on DEX, gear, traits and food, but the actual ingame checks for hit/miss also includes the accuracy based on your skill with the weapon.

As has been explained, your DEX, gear, traits, and food do not directly affect /check results. There are exactly three things that /check considers:

1) your level vs. mob's level
2) your net accuracy with your mainhand melee weapon (or H2H if unarmed) vs. mob's net evasion
3) your net attack with your mainhand melee weapon (or H2H if unarmed) vs. mob's net defense

Other factors (weapon skill, STR, debuffs, food, etc.) only affect /check so far as they modify your net attack/accuracy or the mob's evasion/defense.

In another thread it was found that attack food only boost your base strength (weapon dmg + weapon skill (and maybe str, can't remember). It does not increase attack from gear or berserk etc. (not sure about job traits like war's atk up, maybe someone has a test from that) But does accuracy food increase based on everything? (gear, traits, abilities, and weapon skill)

As I recall, %-based increases apply after all non-% increases have been added. So, for example:

300 base ATK (from weapon skill and base STR)
+ 50 ATK from gear
+ 100 ATK from bard songs
= 450 base ATK

Now calculate all ATK % bonuses (we'll say 20% from food, 25% from 'zerk)
450 * 1.20 * 1.25 = 675

I would imagine that sushi works the same way, though it would take a good deal of testing to verify it.

In a /check, whether the mob cons as low eva or high eva is dependant solely on your total ACC+ and not at all with your weapon skill lvl. Now, whether that same mob cons as high def or low def is dependant solely on your skill level with your currently equipped weapon and I believe your total ATK+ (Which your weapon skill directly affects). Pretty sure the check is your acc vs. the mobs eva and your weapon skill lvl vs. the mobs def. That's what I've always understood it to be anyway.

This is incorrect. Your weapon skill doesn't matter for attack-defense check any more than it matters for accuracy-evasion check. The only things that are considered are your net accuracy and attack.

I have a similar screenshot (I'll post it later) of me using a staff as RNG/WAR (although WAR has native staff skill, mine is 0) with ~365 ATK. So even though my staff skill is zero, 365 ATK is 365 ATK.

[Intensity]

This is incorrect. Your weapon skill doesn't matter for attack-defense check any more than it matters for accuracy-evasion check. The only things that are considered are your net accuracy and attack.

I have a similar screenshot (I'll post it later) of me using a staff as RNG/WAR (although WAR has native staff skill, mine is 0) with ~365 ATK. So even though my staff skill is zero, 365 ATK is 365 ATK.

Your weapon skill level directly affects your attack. And I mean DIRECTLY. No stat affects your attacks like your weapons skill level. So saying it all depends on your attack and accuracy is kind of misleading, because all the stats you're saying don't matter in actuality are gonna be the stats that manipulate ATK and ACC.

Example: In the above screenshots. Your attack is only 56. Why? Because your staff level is 0. Now, if you were equipping a weapon you had the skill level of your weapon capped, that same bat wouldn't con a high def to you.

Basically, what it comes down to is yes, your total Attack and total Accuracy are what determies the /check. BUT, every single thing that affects your ATK and ACC affects the /check. This is why an exp Mob that cons as High eva might not after eating sushi or an exp mob that cons as high def before you level, will not con as high def once you level and cap out your weapon.

[Spider-Dan]

Your weapon skill level directly affects your attack. And I mean DIRECTLY.

Yes, in the same sense that weapon skill also directly affects your accuracy.

But that's the point of this thread... even with a weapon skill of 0, a mob can still check as low evasion or low defense. Your weapon skill is not the determining stat; your accuracy and attack are. And weapon skill is only one of many factors used to calculate those scores.

[Intensity]

If that's the case then Attack and Accuracy wouldn't really be the BASE mdoifiers for that. STR and DEX would be because take everything off and use no JA's and food and your ATK and ACC will be solely judged by those 2 stats.

[Karinya]

That's not true (even leaving out Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus traits, which you can't take off). Linear regression of attack vs STR (with 0 skill) shows a nonzero y-intercept - i.e., even if you could somehow reduce your STR to 0 *and* were using a 0-skill weapon, with no +attack gear or food or Attack Bonus traits or JAs, you'd *still* have nonzero Attack. This is easy to see on mules - +2 str normally gives +1 attack, but a STR 5 mule who has never swung a weapon (and therefore has zero combat skills), naked and with no JAs or traits, has 10-15 attack IIRC. (The same character also has DEF higher than half his VIT, even with no DEF from gear.)

Accuracy is a hidden stat but it seems reasonable to assume the same.

It's possible that this "base attack" term diminishes in significance with higher level, though, being overwhelmed by other terms.


In any case... this is old news. The fact that gear and JAs influence /check underlies the testing methodology that allows the precise size of accuracy influences to be determined: find how much +acc you need to wear for a specific mob to check low eva, then use sushi (or aggressor, or change to rng sub, etc.) and repeat. (Note that if you're changing SJ, you'll lose track of your original mob, so you need to take measures to make sure you are testing against an equivalent mob when you come back - for example, a precisely EM mob.)

Depending on how worn +acc interacts with the effect you are measuring, you can estimate how the difference in worn +acc to achieve the same check result translates to a change in accuracy provided by the independent variable.

[Intensity]

Okay, let me make my base point. Weapon Skill level does affect /check. Period. Regardless of what the base modifier is, your current level in your equipped weapon will affect /check. If you have 0 level in your equipped weapon, most mobs will con high def to you. If you have it capped @ lvl 75 most will con Low to you. Of course this depends on what your skill level caps at with that weapon according to your job.

If anyone doubts this I will go out and take screens of me with my lowly lv100 Sword and con a Gob in Yuhtunga(sp?) tonight to show they're high def, then spend the weekend leveling it to 200 and /check all the gobs in that area again and show that they'll be low def now. Might have to do it in CN if 100 is too high for the jungle.