Test: /check is based on net accuracy, not weapon skill

[klvino]

A simple answer(but no one would believe it), is to ask a bard about this.....

As a bard, the uses of minuets and madrigals directly modify rating you receive on /check. And since minuets affect attack and madrigals affect accuracy, and NOTHING ELSE, then you can simply deduce that those are the primary ratings used when doing a /check.

Now weaponskill does not directly affect /check, but it does directly affect attack, which is the rating used by /check. So increasing your weaponskill increases your attack.

Back to the point, as a bard, I've personally witnessed changes in /check ratings when I solo. Since I am a bard, my weaponskills are generally underleveled, so I'll check a mob and receive, "Easy prey, but has high defense", so I slap on minuets and recheck, "Easy prey".

[Intensity]

So what are we arguing here? You say Weapon skill levels don't affect /check, but you admit they do affect your attack, which does affect /check. Do you see where you guys are misunderstanding my point here?

Me: Weapon skill level affects /check because it directly impacts your attack.

You: No, only Attack affects /check

Wtf?

[Caspian]

Ok, now I'm kinda pissed at myself for not seeing it earlier. Thanks Intensity for bringing it up. Dan, from what I can see, your test didn't prove that weapon skill has no affect on /check, but rather that /check is also affected by gear, stats, etc..
Wouldn't a more complete test be to go in absolutely naked, with a weapon you have no skill in, /check it to see if its high evasion, then change weapons to say a dagger or sword which you'd have much higher weapon skill in (ranged weapons are obviously useless for this test) and see if it still /checks as high evasion. If the only changed variable is weapon used, and changing that variable causes a change in what the mob /checks as then that would give evidence that weapon skill does affect /check. (Again, I don't know that it does, just offering a more complete test)

[Intensity]

To put this argument to rest I'm going to do that tonight. I'll go to Yuhtunga with my 70NIN. I'll equip a club (Pretty sure my skill lvl for clubs isn't above 10, guaranteed nowhere close to the level for Gobs) and /check a Smithy. Guaranteed it will be high def. I'll be sure I'm naked when I do this. Then I'll check it with a Katana equipped (Maxed lvl @70) and also, guarantee it checks low def. Consider this scenario, and the doubting thomas' cannot deny this will be the case. BUT, for the sake of argument I'll post screenshots. I'm at work for another hour and a half so you guys'll have to be patient. Even though the description above is obviously going to be true, I know everyone will want proof nonetheless.

[Caspian]

I'm sure you won't, but be sure not to sub rng or drg for the accuracy bonus. War gives the atk bonus, but I don't think it will be enough to affect anything. I'm sure a mage sub would definately not help in any way.
Thanks Intensity.

[Intensity]

I can /blm. It's lvl 1.

EDIT: Loooooooove dinging. lol

[Lmnop]

whether that same mob cons as high def or low def is dependant solely on your skill level with your currently equipped weapon and I believe your total ATK+ (Which your weapon skill directly affects). Pretty sure the check is your acc vs. the mobs eva and your weapon skill lvl vs. the mobs def. That's what I've always understood it to be anyway.

somewhere in here, you lost some of us. It doesn't matter though. I think everyone here is on teh same page.

attack is figured by your STR/2 + Weapon Skill level (each point gives 1 attack until 200) + equipment + traits.

accuracy is figured by your DEX(still unsure about dex/2) + Weapon Skill level(each point gives 1 accuracy until 200) + equipment + traits.

attack is figured against defense and accuracy is figured against evasion. It's simple as that, yo. What Dan proved is that, yes, Weapon Skill Level is not the only factor. What Intensity(sorry, i'm not very leet and stuff) is going to prove is that the reverse is true as well? That Weapon Skill does affect as well? Shoot, I believe you but go ahead and test it for peeps who don't know ^^

also, I believe base attack is 8. regardless of how low your STR or WS level is, your attack bottoms out at 8. It's been a year since I tested. Maybe my methods were wrong at the time.

[Caspian]

What Intensity(sorry, i'm not very leet and stuff) is going to prove is that the reverse is true as well? That Weapon Skill does affect as well? Shoot, I believe you but go ahead and test it for peeps who don't know

What both Intensity and I gathered from Dan's tests was that he was saying that weapon skill played no part in /check, rather than stats, food, and gear also playing a part in /check. Which I also agree with.

[Intensity]

somewhere in here, you lost some of us. It doesn't matter though. I think What Intensity(sorry, i'm not very leet and stuff)

Maybe i'm not leet and stuff either, where did that come from? Think I missed something lol

EDIT: Well, contrary to popular belief not only does Weapon Skill level affect whether a mob /checks as high or low def, it also affect whether it checks as high low eva.

This is a ding bat /check'd as a 70NIN and just a warp cudgel equipped. No equip, no food. Observe that the bat only cons as high def. My club lvl is 27.

http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/withclubcheck.jpg

My equipment: http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/equippedcudgel.jpg

This is the same Ding Bat checked with both my Fudo's equipped. I have max skill level with katana's @ 70. Note, They're now Low def AND Low eva.

http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/withfudoscheck.jpg

My equipment: http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/equippedfudos.jpg

So, your skill level in your current weapon affects your acc and atk, which in turn will affect whether a mob cons as high/low def/eva.

[klvino]

Maybe i'm not leet and stuff either, where did that come from? Think I missed something lol

EDIT: Well, contrary to popular belief not only does Weapon Skill level affect whether a mob /checks as high or low def, it also affect whether it checks as high low eva.

This is a ding bat /check'd as a 70NIN and just a warp cudgel equipped. No equip, no food. Observe that the bat only cons as high def. My club lvl is 27.

http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/withclubcheck.jpg

My equipment: http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/equippedcudgel.jpg

This is the same Ding Bat checked with both my Fudo's equipped. I have max skill level with katana's @ 70. Note, They're now Low def AND Low eva.

http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/withfudoscheck.jpg

My equipment: http://www.geocities.com/ncrnt/equippedfudos.jpg

So, your skill level in your current weapon affects your acc and atk, which in turn will affect whether a mob cons as high/low def/eva.

Dunno why everyone is beating the dead horse.

It's simple and uncomplicated, but I understand you have to do the testing so you can feel 100% sure you're right.

I had always thought it was common knowledge that improving your weapon skill increased your attack rating and how often you actually hit the mob(accuracy, duh). The formulas have been there forever, it's not rocket science, I thought everyone was agreeing with each other earlier since everyone was saying the same thing, only using different terminology and logic. Oh well, let the beatings continue.

[Caspian]

Thanks Intensity. I was out late, so I was unable to check it myself. The /check takes everything into account. Good to know. Thanks again.

[Spider-Dan]

What I am trying to say here is that /check results are not determined by your weapon skill. They are determined by accuracy/attack. That's it.

In other words:

If I have 10 weapon skill and ATK+40 in gear, or if I have 50 weapon skill and ATK+0 in gear, the /check results will be exactly the same. /check does not test mob defense/evasion against your weapon skill... it checks it against your accuracy/attack.

There are many factors involved in calculating your accuracy and attack, and weapon skill is only one of them. So in a nutshell:

- /check measures your accuracy/attack vs. mob's defense/evasion
- there are many factors in calculating your accuracy/attack, including gear, base stats, food, weapon skill, and buffs/debuffs
- none of these factors directly determine /check results

Let me give you an analogous example:

If I said that Spirits Within damage was determined by your HP and your TP, most of you would agree. But your HP is affected by your job level, right? So would you say that Spirits Within damage is determined by your job level? Of course not.

That's what I'm saying here... /check is determined by your accuracy and attack, and while there are many things that influence those scores, none of them directly determine the results of /check.

[Armando]

There seems to be some confusion as to what some people were claiming, so just to clarify...

I wasn't claiming that Weapon Skill has no effect on Check, but rather that Check doesn't take weapon skill into consideration at any point; it checks your Attack and Accuracy against the mob's Defense and Evasion, and a great part of your Attack and Accuracy comes directly from your skill with that weapon. However, if you had a 100 Skill with a weapon, then switched to a weapon with which you have 0 skill and somehow add 200 STR and DEX, you'd end up with the same Attack and Accuracy as before, and thus the Check message would be exactly the same. Basically, it doesn't matter where the Attack or the Accuracy comes from (skill, traits, stats, songs, JAs, equipment,) the only thing that Check takes into account is the total ammount.

[Lmnop]

:O Intensity, didn't your name used to be spelled with lots of numbers in place of vowels? or was that a signature you used to use? So yea, that's what I was referring to >.> I'm crazy.

Ok, as for the topic -- we need every single post deleted except for the first one and Dan's last one. Any further questions/comments (including this one o0) are useless. His last post clarifies any uncertainties.

[Caspian]

Yes, Intensitiy's name used to be very difficult to spell properly.

Sorry Dan, from the title and your first post I thought you were saying that weapon skill had no effect on /check, indirectly or otherwise. It was confusing me at first (something you'd think I'd be used to by now)