[Taskmage]

Not that I don't agree that the investment:reward ratio for mythic weaponskills is way off, but isn't it rather narrowminded to say that Mystic Boon is whm's only native way of regaining MP? Yes, anyone can use Spirit Taker or sub sch for sublimation but that doesn't make them not valid ways of gaining MP. It's like saying anyone can sub drk for enmity but nin has no way of accumulating enmity. Clearly it does in the form of /drk; just because it's not exclusive to nin doesn't mean nin doesn't have it.

Moreover the party dynamics in FFXI are supposed to be about each class covering for the weaknesses of the others. There are three other jobs that can regain your MP for you. You can't regain MP "natively". Tab A goes into slot A.

[Firewind]

Other than how useless in a general exp party setting Mythic Boon is my main point is that WHM is highly shafted i nthe MP recovering department and has to be 100% reliant on gear, their subjob (especially since we only get Clear Mind IV) and the RDM/BRD/COR actually bothering to refresh you.

With the whole burn mentality of the entire playerbase the only thing about selecting MP users that people usually care about is how fast MP users can get their MP back and well let's face it, WHM is the slowest there is:

BLU: MP Drainkiss. (Can MB this off a self SC Darkness with Relic WS), Clear Mind IV, Auto-Refresh
BLM: Aspir, Clear Mind V
DRK: Aspir, A- Dark Magic, people only want you to cast Stun and occasionally Sleep
PLD: Auto-Refresh, Spirit Taker (Probably the only class with native access to it that can use it in an exp/merit party and not get booted), Chivalry
RDM: Refresh, Convert, Clear Mind III
SCH: Sublimation, Calm Mind IV
SMN: Auto-Refresh, Clear Mind V
WHM: Clear Mind IV

Really I'd be happier with WHM getting something like Clear Mind V or a light based Aspir than some melee update that will probably only be of any use in Campaign or MMM. All other MP using classes have at the very least a small degree of self-sufficiency. Why can't WHMs?

[Nuriko]

WHM's staff skill is only C+, it caps out at 230. I have capped club skill (B+ for WHM), 4 merits in club (no need for other weapons yet, and it helps in Campaign), and some +acc gear, and I'd STILL like more accuracy ... and if I'm using a staff, I'm going to sub THF for the boosted damage and the certain hit if I can afford to.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Firewind

PLD: Auto-Refresh, Spirit Taker (Probably the only class with native access to it that can use it in an exp/merit party and not get booted), Chivalry

No PLD would use a staff in exp or merit parties anyway, because we actually do get booted for that. Lately I've noticed Refreshing classes who don't even pay attention or cast their MP refreshing spells/songs and if asked they freak out about being told how to do their job. I've thought about using a staff a few times for extra MP, but I'd rather keep my TP for Chivalry and my crappy sword WS damage.

I'd be all for a WHM Aspir type ability. Or even a Refresh ability that they can cast on other PT members, because maybe then I'd get some Refresh with minimal bitching.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

No PLD would use a staff in exp or merit parties anyway, because we actually do get booted for that.

And with good reason. A pair of A+ Weapons (S&S) vs -20% physical damage despite the fact that over time shield blocks are likely to reduce damage even more in an EXP session. (That's not to say Staff PLD doesn't have it's place; just not in EXP)


It is a bit silly that they feel Mystic Boon should be WHM's primary method for recovering MP outside of resting, but what can you do about it? Apart from using that Comments and Suggestions e-mail from that is They DO still read those things now and then.


It would be nice of them to maybe try and do something about MP longevity for situations like TP burns. Lord knows people might start inviting BLM's again, though that would likely take a new EXP camp altogether that doesn't involve Colibri.

[dirtyclown]

Thank you captain obvious for informing me that shield blocks are more effective than an earth staff. I was completely unaware of that fact previously.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Firewind

Really I'd be happier with WHM getting something like Clear Mind V or a light based Aspir than some melee update that will probably only be of any use in Campaign or MMM.

Clear Mind V would be wonderful. Do you think BLMs and SMNs would complain if WHM also got this trait?

Light-based Aspir... maybe Syphon? SMN gets a syphon JA which pulls MP from their summon, why not have a spell Syphon function as a light-based Aspir?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Light-based Aspir... maybe Syphon? SMN gets a syphon JA which pulls MP from their summon, why not have a spell Syphon function as a light-based Aspir?

Both BLM and SCH would give you subbable aspirs. BLU, too.

No point.

Additionally, if you're subbing SCH, you're not doing much harm by being in Dark Arts and curing people. Worst of it is it slows your casting down a little, recast is hardly even effective and the additional MP cost is a joke. So you can actually whore out Aspir a couple times before going back to Light Arts.

Also, if you really believe you need Clear Mind V to keep up, something's wrong with your +hMP build. As a SCH with Sublimation merits, I will break Stoneskin while resting if I don't use my +hMP and MND build, so I need to keep a good +hMP and MND build if I'm low on MP so I can get back up to full quickly and preserve as much Stoneskin as I can.

[Firewind]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

No PLD would use a staff in exp or merit parties anyway, because we actually do get booted for that. Lately I've noticed Refreshing classes who don't even pay attention or cast their MP refreshing spells/songs and if asked they freak out about being told how to do their job. I've thought about using a staff a few times for extra MP, but I'd rather keep my TP for Chivalry and my crappy sword WS damage.

Just because a PLD using a staff is situational does not mean it's totally useless. All I was saying was that PLDs are probably the only class in the game that could ever get away with attacking with a staff in an exp party i nthe first place.

Actually a shield won't do you any good whatsoever if you have to kite something. They only work against attacks from the front in a cone shape.

Originally Posted by Malacite

It is a bit silly that they feel Mystic Boon should be WHM's primary method for recovering MP outside of resting, but what can you do about it? Apart from using that Comments and Suggestions e-mail from that is They DO still read those things now and then.

I'll need a Japanese e-mail address before SE take a coment seriously.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Both BLM and SCH would give you subbable aspirs. BLU, too.

No point.

Additionally, if you're subbing SCH, you're not doing much harm by being in Dark Arts and curing people. Worst of it is it slows your casting down a little, recast is hardly even effective and the additional MP cost is a joke. So you can actually whore out Aspir a couple times before going back to Light Arts.

Also, if you really believe you need Clear Mind V to keep up, something's wrong with your +hMP build. As a SCH with Sublimation merits, I will break Stoneskin while resting if I don't use my +hMP and MND build, so I need to keep a good +hMP and MND build if I'm low on MP so I can get back up to full quickly and preserve as much Stoneskin as I can.

Could you please read my post again? I'm talking about native abilities to regain MP. Not what you can get from gear or subjobs. As it stands White Mages are 100% dependant on thier subjobs, gear and party members to recover MP. I'm looking for ways to make it more self sufficient. I'm not looking for some ZOMGTEHAWESOMESAUCE update that makes WHM the only healer class worth playing. I'm trying to think of balanced ways of giving WHM a way of regaining MP without either resting or spending hundred of hours dungeon crawling for a WS you will never use in an exp party because most SAMs will never give you thier TP.

Calm Mind V would help out a great deal, you as a COR main should know how useful even adding a few points of hMP to the healer can be. I seriously doubt that any SMN or BLM would complain about WHMs getting this since it will hardly effect thier invite rates.

A Light based Aspir would be a lot less likely to be resisted than a dark based aspir and it would be much more useful. As it stands aspir and MP drainkiss or functionally useless against the major Meripo targets Imps and Collibri. One is a dark elemental and so is practially immune to dark spells while the other had no MP and will most likely reflect the aspir either at you or worse the PLD. Again I doubt BLMs, DRKs or SCHs would complain as it's unlikely to negatively impact thier invite rates.

One thing I have wondered is if the WHM/RDM update would involve them both getting some kind of En-Aspir JA but I'm fairly sure that SE won't do something like that because of DNC despite /DNC being kinda pointless as a solo sub for WHM when there is /BST and /NIN around.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Firewind

Just because a PLD using a staff is situational does not mean it's totally useless. All I was saying was that PLDs are probably the only class in the game that could ever get away with attacking with a staff in an exp party i nthe first place.

Actually a shield won't do you any good whatsoever if you have to kite something. They only work against attacks from the front in a cone shape.

That was my point though, because staves aren't used in exp/merit parties for tanking, they're used for kiting. Kiting and tanking are two different things, as I'm sure you're aware. Also, just because I'm pointing something out doesn't mean you have to explain yourself and then further try to make me look like a fool by underlining how shield blocks work. We were on the same page, and I agreed with what you were saying. Now I kinda want you to die in a fire.

[Kasandaro]

Originally Posted by Firewind

the major Meripo targets Imps and Collibri. One is a dark elemental and so is practially immune to dark spells while the other had no MP and will most likely reflect the aspir either at you or worse the PLD.

Slight de-rail. Colibri do in fact have mp - I can't count the number of times I've Aspir Sambaed them in a pld party with no other Refresher.

Re-rail: If they do make a Syphon spell, it needs to have some way to compensate for the fact that a significant number of mobs don't have mp.

There, in theory, is nothing wrong with WHM or RDM meleeing as is, as they've got the same weapon rating as DNC (and a better one than PUP; and access to a fair amount of melee gear. My concern is having a club (sword) that deals tolerable damage and compensates for the lack of +macc from the estaves. And I don't count semi-difficult-to-obtain end-game gear like Antares.

And if they up the melee skill of WHM-RDM to A, expect to hear the DNC and PUP forums howl.

[Firewind]

According to Wiki Colibri are RDMs so you're right about them having MP

I doubt PUPs and DNCs would riot. PUPs mainly rely on their automations for damage as those things can cast tier IV nukes. That and I doubt anything could ever negatively impact their invite rate. And as for DNCs shouldn't someone tell the DNCs that they aren't DDs? Front line support job and melee DD are two kinda different things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

And if they up the melee skill of WHM-RDM to A, expect to hear the DNC and PUP forums howl.

Pretty sure they'll never up melee skill for RDM and WHM - you have combat skill merits for that. People can boohoo about RDM's sword skill all they want, but I'm COR. We have a slightly lower rating than RDM and we hit mobs just fine.

B skill is one of those things where performance on an HNM or god gets exaggerated and applied to lower level party dynamics. Some RDMs just want it because they're still hurt BLU got the higher rating. Um, BLU doesn't get access to multi-hit weapons pre-mythic and their sword skill ties into spell accuracy - totally different job dynamics there, kids.

Both RDM and WHM have access to multi-hit weapons and if you're in a situation where you need Elemental Staves, you shouldn't be meleeing anyway. Wanting a weapon that would roll elemental accuracy and magic attack into the weapon would be so broken its absurd to even suggest it.

Elemental Staves will likely never be displaced for any reason and that's before we even get into the crafting angle.

[Armando]

Actually a shield won't do you any good whatsoever if you have to kite something. They only work against attacks from the front in a cone shape.

If a shield is useless then where's the TP going to come from for Spirit Taker if you're going to be facing away from the mob?

Also, it's possible to run backwards so that you can block/attack while you kite, terrain permitting.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Kasandaro

There, in theory, is nothing wrong with WHM or RDM meleeing as is, as they've got the same weapon rating as DNC

Pretty sure WHM has A+ club...

EDIT: Wtf, it's B+ O.o why did I always think it was A....