[Faust]

I suppose I should clarify a bit...

I don't mind healing people, or splitting cures between me and another. It's when parties use me as the sole healer for the party with no backup.

[SpiderKing]

The last (and only party really) I was in was, "RDM Enfeeble and Cure". My only cure spell "Cure" heals 12 dmg. and everyone in the party besides be was two hundred hp +, and we had a dedicated white mage. I felt like I wasn't doing my job right, I enfeebled like a mad man though. Anyway, RDM's aren't around to main heal (unless they're /WHM) and I don't believe that one has to play /WHM to be of use. BLM and WHM paint wide strokes, us RDM fill in the details.

[locus]

*shrugs* Read in between the lines how you want. It's just an opinion and doesn't count for much.

/WHM being an inferior sub in terms of efficiency? Ooh, let's look here:

Curaga - only the most mp efficient spell at curing a party ever. Ever tried to cure a party getting hit by AEs without this? One word: Flies.

Parana Silena whateverna Erase: Don't tell me /BLM can do this. The more quickly you can na the party, the more efficiently you perform. It's really freaking annoying to only have one /whm sub in the entire party when fighting stuff that binds everyone, like Aura statues, or AE paralyzes - like tigers, the list goes on.

Divine seal. Hmmmmmm. Extra 400+ hp from Cure 4 after convert... or 140ish hp from drain from Elemental seal? Your choice. Don't forget Autoregen helps after convert.

Protectra 2 - MUCH easier on the mp to hit everyone with Protectra and shellra 2 and give the powerful protect 4 and shell 4 to the main tanks. You don't seriously buff everyone with protect 4 and shell 4 and blow 840 mp every 30 minutes, do you? Of course, having a WHM in the party is better, but not always possible.

Banish - Try this on ghosts before the WS. See if you can get the timing right.

Bar-ra- spells - hey, you get to share these now! And your enhancing beats the WHM's!

Higher MND - MIND affects the effectiveness of Slow and Paralyze in a measurable way. Slow strength is directly linked to MND.

Teleports - so you don't have escape, but at least you can save the party when they mess up in Ro Maeve now.

--------
Warp is efficient? I fail to see how it helps you level efficiently unless you cast it regularly every few battles. BLM has many advantages, yes, but on an Elvaan, I really don't recommend you try relying on Drain/Aspir because of your lower INT.

RDM in general has barely sufficient Elemental Skill to cast nukes without resists consistently on IT monsters. I've played /BLM enough to know and admit to the fact that it's a lazy and selfish subjob compared to RDM/WHM.

Yes, I admit that you're correct that it would get tiring to get forced into a single role all the time. (Hence why I really enjoy RDM/BRD as it lets me mess around in parties where 5 people need refresh and still get great exp. It's THE Mp-refreshing master class.) But part of the fun in RDM is that RDM can sub just about anything (exception - PLD and DRG) and pull off something wonderful and unique. But I also refuse to complain about curing people - that's always one of my main responsibilities regardless of which mage class I play.

[lionx]

RDM/DRG=Apple pie soloing Mission 5-1 Thats all there is to it though besides maybe ballista..>_>;

[Enialas]

1st I never said warp was MP efficient, just mentioned it was a ticket home. It is Time-Efficient though.

2nd I don't waste ES for Drain. I use it to make sure Aspir hits or I save it for MB. (depends fully on mob and pt)

3rd /whm for teleport? arent they all 38+ anyways? even if 1 or 2 is 36 or 37, I've got a long ways to go before I even need to think or worry about them. heck I have 2 genkis before Maat I still need to do. Escape is useful long before I could possibly Chainspell Teleport but tele is useful in many more areas.

4th Taskmage has a wonderful post on which levels/areas /whm would be the best sub for rdm.

5th Banish? you talk about Blm spells and Elemental Magic skill being ineffective and resisted but pull up a E- RDM skill? If a water creature resists a Thunder III, why would an undead not resist a Banish? I am curious.

otherwise you do bring up a whole bunch of stuff that if you dont have a whm in the pt, a rdm/whm would have and certainly be much better than /blm.

however a whm, rdm, brd.. a rdm/whm would be redundant. also whm, blm, rdm.. ah but I'm getting off topic.

I don't like main healing, not because I suck at main healing, not because I suck at rdm, simply I like relying on somene else handle that. also when the pt needs that dispel, I can do it (as long as i'm not midcast for Refresh) but if I have to focus more on healing than everything else, Enfebelments and Dispels become lacking.
Of course if there's another mage, they can share either load and I'll carry the other.

I personally prefer to assist the whm than to act like a mis-equipped whm.

EDIT: rdm/blm selfish? why is it the "prefered" sub, the one everyone I've pt'd w/ expecting/demanding a rdm to have?

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Enialas

1st I never said warp was MP efficient, just mentioned it was a ticket home. It is Time-Efficient though.

Two words: Warp Cudgel

Originally Posted by Enialas

2nd I don't waste ES for Drain. I use it to make sure Aspir hits or I save it for MB. (depends fully on mob and pt)

I like /BLM ok, but on the rare occasions when I use RDM/BLM I prefer to save it for emergency use (i.e. ES Silence or Sleep II)

Originally Posted by Enialas

3rd /whm for teleport? arent they all 38+ anyways? even if 1 or 2 is 36 or 37, I've got a long ways to go before I even need to think or worry about them. heck I have 2 genkis before Maat I still need to do. Escape is useful long before I could possibly Chainspell Teleport but tele is useful in many more areas.

Teleport-Mea, Teleport-Dem, and Teleport-Holla are level 36 WHM, and can be case as RDM72/WHM36 (this is particularly nice if you're planning to go to King Ranperre's Tomb anyway).

Originally Posted by Enialas

5th Banish? you talk about Blm spells and Elemental Magic skill being ineffective and resisted but pull up a E- RDM skill? If a water creature resists a Thunder III, why would an undead not resist a Banish? I am curious.

Undead have very, VERY low light magic resistance, but that's not why you cast Banish before a MB. Banish temporarily removes the physical damage resistance of undead like Ghosts (2 seconds I think?). If you can time it right, you can make your party's weaponskills hit for a lot more damage against normally resistant undead.

Originally Posted by Enialas

I don't like main healing, not because I suck at main healing, not because I suck at rdm, simply I like relying on somene else handle that. also when the pt needs that dispel, I can do it (as long as i'm not midcast for Refresh) but if I have to focus more on healing than everything else, Enfebelments and Dispels become lacking.
Of course if there's another mage, they can share either load and I'll carry the other.

I personally prefer to assist the whm than to act like a mis-equipped whm.

For this I agree, I really prefer being backup healer when playing RDM, especially if I have 3 or more total spellcasters in the party, since Refresh has a depressingly long casting duration; bad timing on enemy special attacks can leave you with no options if you just started casting Refresh. Still, as long as there's a backup healer like a Bard around, it's not "that" bad - then again, WHM is my main job so maybe it doesn't bug me as much as it does most people... if the back line is RDM/BRD/BLM though, you'd better believe I'll use /WHM and go into healer mode.

Originally Posted by Enialas

EDIT: rdm/blm selfish? why is it the "prefered" sub, the one everyone I've pt'd w/ expecting/demanding a rdm to have?

I'm partial to RDM/BRD in XP parties. 4MP/tick for every spellcaster in the party is huge for keeping the XP flowing.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Originally Posted by Icemage

I'm partial to RDM/BRD in XP parties. 4MP/tick for every spellcaster in the party is huge for keeping the XP flowing.

At what lvl does /brd really become useful in xp parties, as soon as ballad becomes available or later than that?

[ultimaknight]

My biggest grief with being main healer is people's attitudes towards it. There has been a few times when I have either joined a party as the main healer or been 'thrown' into the role because of another's player laziness.

Two key examples that kind of turn me off of being main healer:
While in Selbina to get by Subjob items / experience party, I was invited to a party that was leveling on the beach. According to the leader, the WHM was leaving and they needed someone who could play the role of main healer. I accepted, thinking that they had another mage with cure abilities present. Only afterwards did I notice that the group was made up of a MNK, WAR, BLM, WHM (who was leaving), and then myself. Plus, the leader only wanted 4 members because of the experience they were getting from the mobs. After a few kills, of course I had to rest because the WAR was taking a lot of damage and couldn't keep the hate off the BLM. And the MNK spent more time using Boost than anything else. About 45 mins in the BLM goes off to pull a monster (why, I have no idea) and pulls a Bogy! I am still healing as he runs to the camp, and didn't have much MP regained yet. Plus, I was the highest lvl of the party members and the Bogy checked IT for me. Before I knew it the Bogy had killed the WAR and MNK while the BLM took off. I took off running back to Selbina too hoping to lose the Bogy, but ended up training some gobs along with the Bogy and got killed before I even reached the gates. I decided that it was time to leave that party.

The second incident was equally annoying. Mainly because the group was trying to party level, with a PLD constantly pulling monsters nonstop. And for a while I was able to keep up, but eventually I had rest; which seemed to piss off the PLD because I was causing downtime for his EXP chain. After a few comments from him, I decided to disband and go do other things. Later I got a tell from one of the other members saying that he left shortly after because the PLD was unable to find another healer that would party with them.

Because of these incidents, I have made it a point to screen parties before accepting invites. If I am the only mage present in the party, I tell them I will heal; but that because of my limited MP pool I will require resting time. If they have a main healer present, I will help heal along with my RDM enfeebling; BUT if the WHM starts slacking I will leave (I had that happen too...he just sat there resting with a full MP gauge).

I don't have a problem healing. I would rather throw a Cure out there if it means I will save a player from death and exp loss. I became a RDM because I want to be a help to parties and to support those I am teamed up with. But I do ask that they respect that I do have my limitations as well and that my job is not that of a 'mana tank.'

[locus]

Originally Posted by Caspian

At what lvl does /brd really become useful in xp parties, as soon as ballad becomes available or later than that?

Yep! RDM/BRD is so great in 5mp pt member parties that it defies words.

Duration of resistance removal from Banish is next 2 hits from banish, next 3 hits from Banish 2. Haven't tested extensively with Banish 3, I'm afraid. Banish also partially removes the damage resistance of skeletons towards piercing weapons, so your drg/rng/thf will momentarily "unsuck" (if they time the ws right, of course.)

News: With the latest patch, I have officially given up RDM/BLM for 80% of my RDM soloing needs (getting paralyzed/dia/whatever once too often without being able to do anything about it was starting to get on my nerves).

/WHM sub past level 72 has increased ridiculously in usefulness. If you have Al'Taieu access, you can get to Tavnazia incredibly quickly any time you want just from a teleport dem -> al taieu > portal twice > sealion's den. The only real things (other than conserve mp, which rocks occasionally) I was using /BLM for were Warp, Escape and Sleepga. And now I don't need Warp/Cudgels/Scrolls anymore!

Originally Posted by ultimaknight

If I am the only mage present in the party, I tell them I will heal; but that because of my limited MP pool I will require resting time.

Actually, if you are the only mage present in the party, I'd suggest prayer. Divine Intervention seems like your most likely chance of salvation from that situation. (party blacklist the leader immediately!)

Originally Posted by Enialas

2nd I don't waste ES for Drain. I use it to make sure Aspir hits or I save it for MB. (depends fully on mob and pt)

Oh, that'd be a great idea, except there are far many more monsters in this game which you can drain hp from than monsters that you can aspir mp from.

Icemage cites a style I use myself when I don't trust my party, my sleep spell landing, or if I am in a link-dangerous zone. It's a very good idea to save it for that critical sleep(ga).

Saving Elemental seal for MB? Firstly, I don't have trouble with elemental magic getting resisted on a MB. MBs generally give a spell a low resist rate. Secondly, as a personal playing style, I put "MB" and "Nuke" very low on my list of "rdm priorities" (BLM does this SO much better...). I don't think it's worth messing up a dispel/silence/refresh for since it takes MP I could use elsewhere. I personally find those usually work best when the monster is nearly dead and you want to end the battle quick.

So what do I do? After convert, I willl use Elemental seal on Drain when it's pretty safe. There are a few reasons for this:

1) Drain produces amazingly little hate for what it does. There's a very good chance you won't pull the monster's attention. Yes, you just hit the monster for a large amount of damage and restored a chunk of your life, but strangely, it doesn't seem to mind that very much.
2) Drain costs all of 21 mp, and fully unresisted, it can drain over 200 hp from the target (This is dependant on your Dark magic skill). Compare to cure 3, which heals about 210++ hp with a light staff, and costs 46 mp to cast. See how much more efficient Drain is?
3) RDM dark magic skill is suboptimal and really needs the help.

I cannot emphasize enough how good drain is as a spell. It's a pity Aspir falls short of it in pure versatility (Although Aspir is a great spell in itself, its usage is far more limited).

[TheGrandMom]

Sorry for throwing this in, but I had to comment. If your a drk, your low on health, and doing a darkness sc, elemental seal and drain for a magic burst is frickin awesome! <3 my drk! .........ok go back to your regularly scheduled discussion! ;P

[LadyPeorth]

I don't mind main healing with my SMN...but you need a REALLY good party for it to work. With a /WHM sub, you're limited to Cure III with Light Staff (around 200 HP most of the time). While that's decent...sometimes you need to pull out a Hail Mary type cure and a /WHM simply cannot deliver that. I mostly warn people when they ask me to main heal that's it is kinda like making a BLM/WHM cure. Too many times have I been in a subpar party and end up flushing 400 MP on the tank per round, with Refresh(mostly in the accursed land of Onzozo with those blasted cats). When asked to main heal, I basically only use one BP at the start of combat (usually either Ecliptic Howl or Lunar Cry), then retreat to healing.

[Gwynn]

I don't mind main healing at all. I pride myself on being versatile. One thing I will say is that it is far easier to main heal if you have a Ninja tank and a Bard. Currently my favorite mage set-ups are RDM (me), BRD, BLM or RDM, BLM, SMN. Its very nice for Rdm and Smn to split main healing or for Rdm to main heal and Brd save their MP for a quick Curaga (I or II) or Cure III when the tank gets low. I only like partying with Whm if the tank is a Pld, which I haven't really been partying with that much (not through my choice, just a coincidence). Otherwise I find that its much more exp effective to fill the third mage slot with a Bard or Summoner as they are slightly more versatile in my eyes.

[Enialas]

strange... and all this time I had always been told brd was gimped if subbed and w/ rdm/brd being "too busy" on top of that.


by the way, thanks for answering the "Banish" question

[tdh]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

Sorry for throwing this in, but I had to comment. If your a drk, your low on health, and doing a darkness sc, elemental seal and drain for a magic burst is frickin awesome! <3 my drk! .........ok go back to your regularly scheduled discussion! ;P

I've MB'd Drain for 221 on a Gravitation before. I was pretty surprised at that. My Drain record before that was 177HP. Was DRK/THF, so no Elemental Seal, but I do macro in some INT for Drain and Aspir.

I dislike main healing due to the fact that I have to main heal, and do my normal "day job." It's a lot of extra work, a lot of stress, and a pain in the butt. I can do it, I just dislike doing it. I would rather a WHM do their job, and as it's part of my job, I help the WHM with heals.

As yet, I don't have a properly leveled WHM sub. I hit RDM42 and only has BLM21 for a sub. So I leveled WHM to Lv.15, which took a while because the Dunes just stinks! I then went and leveled BLM to Lv.31. So I have a sub for RDM all the way to Lv.62. I keep getting invites just about as soon as I log onto the server so I haven't touched BLM or WHM at all. But I have done a Convert + Divine Seal + Cure IV and I drool over how much HP I restore.

However, if I had a WHM30 to use as a sub, I'd still be more partial to BLM sub. Elemental Seal for Sleeping links, the extra INT for INT based Enfeebles, and of course the extra MP I need as an Elvaan. Conserve MP is nice, but honestly I don't pay that close attention to my MP bar to see how often it kicks in.

I do plan to level BRD to sub as needed. I partied in a rather odd group last week. NIN/WAR, BST/NIN, BST/NIN, BLM/SMN, RDM/BRD, & RDM/BLM (me). Lots of EXP and lots of MP Refresh. I also had a quick Manaburn party that lasted for 30 minutes. RDM/BRD would have made things would have made the 5 BLMs even happier. I'd only use it if requested, but it would be something interesting to toy with.

[Enialas]

yeah, I DS sleep adds too but since no one read that in my first post, there was no point to keep stating it, hence my list of DS just kept getting shorter b/c i didn't feel like finding my post and copy-paste it, but when I was quoted It didn't have it in it and well, we know how that goes >.>

when I'm leveling another job and I get a /tell from somone and I do the [ctrl-r] and change the /tell to /sea all <name> and see them w/ a job at where my rdm is, I know it's b/c i'm known.

it was 72rdm/36whm for teles right? that's still 2 genkis plus Maat away. I think i have time to get whm, especially if static party goes well. plus the infinite farming for erase.