[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Solymir

Speaking of Dynamis, I don't understand why people are okay with drg coming to Dynamis and not pup. For arguements sake let's say both of the characters involved have one other level 75 job and it is thf for both of them.

Because a Drg without a Wyvern is still a great DD.

[Clever Ninja]

Someone on these forums does an almost all PUP dynamis, would be better to ask them about those details.

[Lmnop]

Quick note: lolpup is very much still alive.

I know many many many people who won't let people bring their PUPs.

A problem with humans and modern sense of humor: having an easy target (see: "emo") never gets old.

[Sabaron]

I'm not attacking the parse data. I just posed examples for performance.

I chose Kirin because Kirin is a relatively easily accessible mob with a very high level that can be used to test the "bleeding edge" of DD output.

I chose Dynamis because I believe it to be a location where PUP's 20 minute recast timer on maton will come into play and provide a significantly long interval over which to test.

Why I like Dynamis Parses as a test:

1. Frequent deaths test viability of a DD build with respect to it's durability (Dead DDs don't do damage. This forces people to make more realistic DD builds that are at least minimally survivable.)
2. Mobs are sufficiently strong and job-varied to provide a useful basis of comparison without resorting to specialized mobs like Colibri.
3. The number of "trials" (DDs present) gives a very nice cross section for comparison.
4. The duration of a Dynamis run creates a very solid test run for a parse.

You may be simply assuming I'm attacking the statistics because you want to argue, but you are also partially right.

The Colibri parse is the thing everyone refers to as a benchmark for performance, but I feel that it is a mediocre measure of performance. I prefer Dynamis as a benchmark because it provides a larger overall performance grade than a meripo does. Anyone can slaughter Greater Colibri--WHMs, RDMs, and probably even SCHs (though that might be pushing it) can go toe to toe with G. Coli and put up presentable figures considering the level of difficulty. You don't test high-end performance by choosing a low-end "metric" (Metric is "Colibri Damage Output"). You test against a high metric.

If you don't like Kirin, then choose whatever Shijin substitute you prefer. Kirin is nice for testing accuracy caps. For that matter, if you're doing Kirin anyway, why not parse all of the Shijin, too? When I was doing sky we parsed everything so that we could compare performance levels and DDs can re-gear to compensate.

Greater Colibri, in my opinion, is like doing a Proof of Concept--sort of like building a bridge out of toothpicks before you build the real thing out of steel. It provides a nice indication of build viability, but once you establish that viability, you need to go further to provide solidity.

As an aside, I'm strongly in favor of reducing PUP and DRG pet resummon timers to 10 minutes post death to put them closer to the time it takes a normal character to recover from death (from the time of death, through waiting for a Raise, to unweakening) and/or allowing merits to be spent to reduce this timer by 5 minutes. This means that if a pet dies or is unsummoned while injured, the timer for the JA that recalls it is automatically set to 10 minutes regardless of its state beforehand. This provides the advantage of having a shorter timer after deaths, but it prevents DRGs and PUPs from "saving up" an extra maton or wyvern that they can recall immediately.

Alternatively, for PUP, I can see having the recall ability be an action with a really long casting time called "Rebuild" that is as interruptible as say a Jutsu. It allows the PUP to fix the maton orders of magnitude faster than say a DRG (who doesn't really need a boost to wyvern speed), but it forces them to disengage while they do it.

Parsing isn't there just to prove you can do something. Parsing is a way to see where you excel and where you need improvement. In my opinion, it is an essential tool for building high-end DDs and then tweaking those builds to suit a variety of different situations. If what you're going for is "I'm a PUP and I'm a good DD, too!" then what you need to do isn't to prove what you can do, but to maximize your potential by examining a variety of different situations.

If you want to get invited to Dynamis as a PUP, well then... Show us how PUP performs in Dynamis and show us how you built your character to maximize Dynamis performance. Maybe at the end you'll say "Well, I guess the AOE is just too much for me, I'll come WAR next time, " but maybe you'll say "Wow! Now that I've got this maton build set, I really toast them statues!"

Don't forget: There are two things to kill in Dynamis and PUP can try both: Melee mobs and Magic mobs.

And finally, to add a trollish remark...

Are you too scared to test in Dynamis or on Kirin? Do you fear failure? I know that DRKs, WARs, DRGs, etc. would say "Hell no! I'll post big numbers anywhere! I am teh God of DD!" Are you prepared to assault DD heaven to take your place among the gods?


---

And... If you can put up numbers in Dynamis and on Shijin, you'll instantly destroy all arguments claiming that PUP is a shitty DD. You will be irrefutable. The only way to kill lolPUP for good is to smash it into goo with your giant boot, then set it on fire and hurl it into a supernova.

At best, testing well on Colibri shows that you can do well on Colibri. It doesn't even necessarily qualify you to do other camps like MJSP/Halvung because the mobs in those areas behave completely differently. Testing on Colibri definitely doesn't automatically qualify you to do any end-game DD. If all you want is bird meripos, then you've got them with that data, but if you want more you have to give more.

Personally, I have an insatiable thirst for data, so I'm always in favor of expanded testing
______________________________

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

Someone on these forums does an almost all PUP dynamis, would be better to ask them about those details.

I've heard of the PUP Dynamis shell, but I'm really not interested in parse comparisons between PUPs but rather parse comparisons between PUP and "traditional" DDs.
______________________________

Originally Posted by Solymir

This is not an attack or any other type negative response, only adding to the conversation. Didn't someone already posts some decent numbers from using the blm maton against Kirin? I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered someone posting something baout that here.

Speaking of Dynamis, I don't understand why people are okay with drg coming to Dynamis and not pup. For arguements sake let's say both of the characters involved have one other level 75 job and it is thf for both of them.

I would be interested in seeing both kite and zerg parses for PUP vs. Kirin, though I don't really know too much about PUP's spike damage using Overdrive and dumping TP. Also, there's nowhere for the maton to build TP in Kirin's Chamber, so PUP couldn't open with a 300% WS assault, unfortunately, which puts them at a disadvantage against other DDs in that respect. I'd be happy with just the kite output. Data from the other Shijin would probably be better since the PUP would have an opportunity to build the maton's TP before engaging.

As was said previously, a DRG without his wyvern still posts respectable numbers and can frequently deal similar damage to non-pet DDs. The wyvern is sort of like gilding the lily as far as DRG DD goes. There are some instances where a DRG is lacking power compared to other DDs where the wyvern pushes the number above them (especially where undead or other piercing-resistant mobs are involved), but the DRGs own damage would be considered respectable in most cases. Plus with the introduction of the Mezraq/Thallasocrat lances, DRGs attacks reduce Evasion which results in a percentage increase in the accuracy of all members of the alliance, therefore the DRG acts as a buffer for other DDs (sort of like having a music box instead of a full-fledged Bard). The effects of this accuracy bonus are multiplied by the number of DDs attacking the mob meaning that you will see the greatest effects from it in an event like Dynamis where you are multiplying the effect by 20-40 times. Unfortunately, this effect can't be effectively parsed--only calculated. Thalassocrat gives -20 evasion or roughly +10% Hit Rate, effectively raising the total damage output by 10% once it takes effect which in Dynamis is a buttload of damage. You would have to reduce the bonus damage by the proc rate because there will be a percentage of time when the mob is under the effect and a percentage of time when it is not. Of course, increasing the number of DRGs in the group increases the percentage of time mobs spend under the Eva- effect (with diminishing returns of course).

[Halldir]

I want to just clarify exactly was the point of the post since people have taken the time to actually put some thought into the OP.

In case you might have not noticed i put the tone of the message to be somewhat sarcastic because the point wasn't completely about the parse. Here is the point i was trying to make right from the get go and some people got it and some people didn't.

I intentionally parsed in Relic and mostly easily obtainable gear to prove that you don't need epeen gear to be considered. I have full Pahulwan, swift belt and Full relic as well as Cobra Unit gear. I intentionally didn't reply to answers just to see what the replies were going to be.

I never implied that pup was the god of DD jobs nor that should or will ever be top parse on the DD game. The intent was to gauge and see what kind of response my OP was going to bring and for the most part is was exactly what it did... people will not accept that pup has any place in any facet of FFXI and no matter what data could be produced, people are going to be ignorant of what they have no clue about.

Pup was NEVER intended to be top DD of anything. Pup is not the be all and end all of FFXI jobs and unless you have can produce epeen damage forget about playing a job you enjoy and to hell with all jobs the kiddies consider to be sub par.

I've seen all kinds of players and have done all kinds of non-standard BC's and events.

People whined and nay-sayed Avesta the Rdm about how his accomplishments are BS because he has ppl helping him with adds. People non-stop bash Drg and Bst as sub par pet DD jobs. The only reason its not loldrg anymore is because its now lolpup. Drg before was the pup of today. I would know since I've been playing since 2005 and i had pup at 75 8 months after its release.

What made me finally post a parse is this. I've been told countless times that i had to prove Pup was a worth while job and i was forbidden to come on pup to Dynamis (which i have subsequently left). I produced a spread of parses all of which were refuted for some reason or the other. Either the people i was parsing against was gimp or <insert some excuse here> reason. I've xp'd and pup manaburned all with varying results.

And here is the argument i was trying to make from the get go. Note all the sub-par DD and all the crappy data about how everyone sucks and can't play for crap.. Why can't pup be allowed to even have the opportunity to prove what it can do instead of being subjugated to loldom.

At what point is enough, enough?

So much for enjoying FFXI and exploring and experiencing the game and giving new players a chance to have enjoy as well. No wonder why WOW is so popular and people are leaving FFXI by the boat loads.

I am however, looking for a new server where maybe I can be welcome and hopefully enjoy being a Puppetmaster or whatever job i decide to play.

Halldir from Fenrir

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Halldir

People whined and nay-sayed Avesta the Rdm about how his accomplishments are BS because he has ppl helping him with adds.

Comparing PUP performance on G. Coli and Avesta's performance on <<insert mob here>> isn't appropriate since Avesta's accomplishments are skill based, and we're discussing general performance metrics.

Originally Posted by Halldir

What made me finally post a parse is this. I've been told countless times that i had to prove Pup was a worth while job and i was forbidden to come on pup to Dynamis (which i have subsequently left). I produced a spread of parses all of which were refuted for some reason or the other. Either the people i was parsing against was gimp or <insert some excuse here> reason. I've xp'd and pup manaburned all with varying results.

And here is the argument i was trying to make from the get go. Note all the sub-par DD and all the crappy data about how everyone sucks and can't play for crap.. Why can't pup be allowed to even have the opportunity to prove what it can do instead of being subjugated to loldom.

At what point is enough, enough?

So much for enjoying FFXI and exploring and experiencing the game and giving new players a chance to have enjoy as well. No wonder why WOW is so popular and people are leaving FFXI by the boat loads.

I am however, looking for a new server where maybe I can be welcome and hopefully enjoy being a Puppetmaster or whatever job i decide to play.

Halldir from Fenrir

Seriously, you were expecting this from the beginning. Were you hoping for hugs and love all around? You can't have a good discussion without both pro and con supporters.

Stating that WoW is where to be because FFXI people are elitist? Are you serious? When was the last time you played WoW? Why don't you go make yourself an "uncommon" character and see how long it takes for someone to politely suggest you go erase your talents and redo them as a "suggested" build before they'll invite you. If anything, I've found the WoW forums leagues more juvenile and non-receptive.

The point where enough is enough is where you either (a) provide substantial evidence that PUP is a competent DD under circumstances where no one would complain about a bad parse or (b) when you give up. Notice that your parse is between 3 people. Just 3 people is a very small sample set--You can't do a good parse in a pick-up because you don't know if the people you pick up suck or not. Reparse it with people who are known to be good or increase the sample size (see below). You can't necessarily show that you rock just because you can beat 2 other people. As a case in point, the Dragoon in your parse obviously licks big nuts based on known performance standards for a DRG versus G. Coli, so now your sample set is down to two people--you and the WAR. Now, if you can parse well in a sea of sky or Dynamis DDs (say 15+ DDs), and beat one or more of the Shijin that indicates that your DDs have a certain level of competency and the parse can be compared to other parses for Shijin (which have fixed hp) to determine whether or not said DDs are better or worse than other DDs who have undertaken the same challenge.

As for the Dynamis parse, it's easy to get a DD slot in a dynamis group unless they already know you have some sought after job at 75 (WHM, BRD, RDM, BLM, ...), but the deadliness tests your resolve. I've seen DRKs who'll post ungodly numbers over a short run, but post mediocre numbers overall because they get killed by every other mob since they have no durability. In order to be good in Dynamis, you have to have a measurably higher durability as a DD than in specialized circumstances where you have perfect control over the target mob.

Your posting suggests that you are saying that PUP is just as good as any other DD (at least on G. Coli), but the implication is that because PUP is just as good as other DD on G. Coli it is also just as good as other DD in general is flawed. Even though you don't specifically state it, you don't deny it either which makes it a sort of provocation and invitation for criticism on that basis.

Now... Go get your Dynamis shoes on and bring me a parse like a good little PUP. :D

[Solymir]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Because a Drg without a Wyvern is still a good DD.

Fixed

Dragoons lose a decent amount of DoT without their pet. You can't really believe wyvernless Dragoon is on par with a great dd.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Solymir

Fixed

Dragoons lose a decent amount of DoT without their pet. You can't a wyvernless Dragoon is on par with a great dd.

Only on regular mobs. On higher-end mobs, the wyvern's contribution as a % of damage decreases. While a wyvern is certainly a good contribution, a Dragoon can still parse respectably without the wyvern. Dragoons only summon the wyvern to use Spirit Surge when doing spike damage, for instance. Over such a short spike, the wyvern's contribution is either nil or virtually nil. It's only contribution is to be absorbed by the DRG to regenerate his jumps for the second volley. I'm currently a 60DRG and from general parsing over a long period of time, I notice that my parses (especially on things like colibri) are near or above the other party members' numbers, but the wyvern shoots me above them. In fact, versus Colibri, DRGs significantly overparse non-piercing DDs without wyvern, and wyverns never die on Colibri. Now I don't really have any 75DRG parse data at this time

I looked through my parses and I really don't have anything conclusive. I have a couple of Limbus parses where we had a DRG in which said DRG performed at a similar level to the other DDs without including wyvern damage. Versus Kirin, I think we only include 1 DRG for Angon because they're really not that "zergy"--they can't really create a massive explosion of damage like a SAM, WAR, or DRK (which is primarily what you see in Kirin zerging), but I would notice if they ever had a bad parse. Between Angon and Evasion Imparement lances, DRG has a couple of specialized tricks up its sleeve that makes it more invitable than just raw damage.

DRG damage output without wyvern is generally on par with other DDs. If it's lower, it's not by much and the wyvern simply covers the small gap. Versus normal mobs, a DRGs wyvern generally accounts for 10-20% of the DRG's damage output, so if you're doing about 10,000, your wyvern does 1,500. Assume the SAM next to you is doing about 11,000 or so. That's what I'm looking at and that's where the wyvern fits. It's just a nudge, not a push-over-the-cliff.

[Susurrus]

Summoner's tier IV nukes from avatars don't get mimic'd on colibri (probably because they're technically abilities, not spells), but do from spirits (which do use actual spells). Neither are powerful enough to warrent nuking and summoners are almost always better off with physical bloodpacts, at least 65/70+.

Question is, do Puppetmaster's mage puppet's nukes get mimic'd? I'd assume so since they're actual spells, but if not, that could be very valuable I think, as from what I heard, puppet nukes are damn good.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Susurrus

(probably because they're technically abilities, not spells)

Thank you.

[Malacite]

yeah it says "Ramuh readies Thunder IV" not Ramuh starts casting like it does for the spirits. It's the same way in the Prime fights too (which again brings us to why the hell do we use MP for JA's but let's not get into that)


Automatons do however, use MP and cast so I'm positive they get reflected. (BLU magic is the one weird exception but I chalk it up to those actually being TP moves cast with MP)

[Clever Ninja]

I've never actually cast any of the Magical BLU spells on a reflective Colibri, so I dunno if it would reflect those since they are classified differently from stuff like Head Butt.

Might try this out tomorrow out of curiosity <_<.

[Sabaron]

If I recall correctly (my apologies, b/c at the moment I'm a little drunk), Blue Magic is not reflected by Colibri or Greater Colibri (Lessers don't reflect anything), but I've never attacked a Colibri as a BLU so I'm not sure.
______________________________
I thought of a rather general question:

Does maton lose TP when teleporting between areas of The Shrine of Ru'Avitau?

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

Comparing PUP performance on G. Coli and Avesta's performance on <<insert mob here>> isn't appropriate since Avesta's accomplishments are skill based, and we're discussing general performance metrics.

not to mention the guy is one seriously loaded RDM

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

1. Frequent deaths test viability of a DD build with respect to it's durability (Dead DDs don't do damage. This forces people to make more realistic DD builds that are at least minimally survivable.)

Speaking as someone who used to go to dynamis as a mage a lot: thanks for the laugh. DDs compete to see who can get the biggest EES numbers. The idea that they might be even minimally responsible for their own survival doesn't generally cross their minds.

If you want DDs that pay attention to something besides doing more damage, Nyzul might be a better testbed. It also has a huge variety of mobs (which is why when I go DRG, I always bring along Bourdonasse, and sometimes I end up using it for a while).

Otherwise: I agree that more data would be nice, and that testing a piercing damage puppet on piercing-weak mobs isn't very conclusive (the more so if you believe my tentative conclusions upthread about number of WS performed and what it says that the ridill WAR with haste gear did so few). Still, they *are* a common exp mob, so even just proving viability on piercing-weak mobs is worth something (and regardless of how many feather tickles the war was eating, you can't use the same excuse for the sam and the drg all at once).