[Susurrus]

Aren't you using a ranged attack puppet?

Aren't birds weak to this?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

That's great and all but what's that do to the validity of this? Colibri are just as kind to Ridill WARs as they are to PUPs.

small nitpick: your WAR wasn't wearing homam legs. WAR cannot use Homam. Those are Byakko's Haidate he's sporting.

What were you getting for songs?

Topping a parse doesn't exactly mean you did anything special to get there.

First thing anyone will do is overlook Songs and/or Phantom Rolls. Let's give come acknowledgment to RDM, WHM, BRD, COR or whoever was giving out the buffs or debuffs as the case may be. Its never all the DD's "skill" when it comes to a parse.

Second, beating out jobs that would have a natural advantage on these mobs seems a tad off. Unless that DRG was subbing /NIN and recieving the brunt of Feather Tickle, or his gear just flat-out sucked, there's really no way he'd be losing out to the PUP. A Sharpshot frame would help a PUP considerably in this situation, But was that best for the situation and setup?

Third barely topped the parse. What we've proven here is when the rest of your party is half-assed or low on merits, you might come out on top as a PUP and that PUP can do well in a merit PT. But he wasn't even recounting the gear of the WAR correctly, as it was pointed out that WAR can't even equip Homam. He even had a pic of the WAR's gear.

The point of the post was to try and prove PUP is awesome. Its a nice job, but that doesn't mean there still aren't problems with it.

And, I'll also point out - you weren't exactly maxed out yourself. PUP relic is respectable, but where's the Walhra Turban and Swift Belt? If you can spend time toiling away at Dynamis, this stuff shouldn't be a stretch for you and would help you considerably. Sushi would cover whatever accuracy you were missing and since you were not getting the brunt of the Feather Tickles, you probably could have used it.

I've come out on top in parses as COR, but that usually says something less positive about my party. I shouldn't be coming out on top, thought it can be fun when I am.

[ShepardG]

If anything can be taken away from this I personally feel that it's proof that PUP can function in a DD role in a merit party.

I've seen SAM's out dmg DRG's, WAR's out dmg DRG's and MNK's out dmg RNG's. Parse prove nothing except the performace of everyone in that party at that time. Maybe the war was drunk, or hung over, or had family visiting. Maybe the DRG had family in town and was distracted for most of the party. There isn't enough information to say anything but this:
In this party the PUP came out on top in the DD department.

I personally think that's great. I've noticed the same in the few lower lvl parses I've done, but I was never the be all, end all DD. I've also played as best I could (well rested,no major distractions, good bandwith) and have been out parsed by SAM's and various other jobs. I don't know if halldir ment his post to be interpreted as PUP FTW above all else. In a more broad sense, I took away from this that PUP can hold their own and sometimes even excel above others when it comes to the dealing damage in merit parties.

I would link to this thread as proof to my justification when trying to convince someone that PUP is quite capable of filling a roll as a DD in a merit party.

What I'm begining to learn, and what I think most everyone on ffxionline understands is that PUP's real strength comes not in it's uber DD abilities, or it's ability to tank, or It's ability to heal, but in it's versatility to keep a party at 6 full members and minimize downtime in this aspect.

I feel like a good PUP has to be good at filling a hybrid roll in most parties. Obviously this can't be accomplished in ALL parties, but a few scenario's that I've experienced played out like this:

Myself and 5 others are in an Exp party. The PLD has to go, and their isn't a tank searching, or even interested in a LvlSync. I offer to Tank as PUP/WAR with my pup setup as a RDM healer. Party grab's another DD and were off. (The party worked decently in the Crawlers nest, getting between chain 3's and 4's with little to no down time.)

A PUP/SCH is invited to participate in a Mana Burn with 3-4 other BLM's. Being able to function as a Nuker with Near limitless MP helps out himself as well as the rest of the party. (Actually never "experienced this" but I've been told/read about it)

A party is looking to kill beetles in West Altepa Desert. They have 2 Nin tanks 3 Dmg Dealers and can't find a Healer. A 40ish PUP/WHM could setup his pup to Heal, and he could buff/Regen/Cure when needed.

This is somewhat off topic, and I apologize, but I feel like alot of players still to this day of Moblin Maze's and Chest's raining out of the sky, Don't understand how they can utilize PUP's to the betterment of the exp parties.

I take away from this Thread that PUP has a place in 85% of the Merit parties that need another DD. We (PUP's) most likely will never be ranked among SAM's and DRG's as the ultimate Piercing DD, but I hope that the community in general will acknowledge PUP as a viable choice when building most any party.

Also the Gators just beat the Sooners.

[Clever Ninja]

Yea I'm pretty sure that the WAR was getting Feather Tickled alot with a Ridill <_<. But still very good parse, shows lolPUP isn't really, well, lolPUP at least in merit situations.

Would be interested in seeing another parse possibly on Mamool Ja staging point camp. The Flash affects everyone, and the Blink wouldn't gimp the WAR's dps as much as Feather Tickle would.

[Lmnop]

Any WAR with an Ares body probably has very good gear all the time and that was prolly just a WS swap. Not that I think Ares full time is that bad (5% less hit rate isn't that atrocious. he was still getting 88% hit rate after all).

Lots of factors do come into play. The Dragoon wreaks of afk. But this PUP still did enough to warrant a /clap from all of us.

It's all true how versatile PUP can be (I'm still intensely interested in seeing a pup/dnc healer in action). If they could stand to gain something, it'd be some carry-over... which is to say, while in DD RNG puppet mode, it'd be nice if they could offer something outside of their RNG emulation (because at this point, why not a real RNG?). But that's a whole other thread.

[ShepardG]

Lmnop, you silly goose that's the next big pup update...or as I like to refer to it as "The PuPdate"....you all can use that...it's patent-pending, but it's cool were all friends.

Pup will be getting a Brd type body and head.


and it plays guitar hero to apply it's buffs....

[Malacite]

Yeah no one is bashing PUP here (other than how expensive some attachments are and the absolutely RETARDED casting A.I. SE said they were going to fix...) just that something seems off given you were up against a Ridill WAR and DRG

[Solymir]

It looks like the Parse said they were getting approximately 17k exp/hr. I've never heard of an average group of players getting this much exp before. What makes you think some of them were not on their A-game?

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Solymir

It looks like the Parse said they were getting approximately 17k exp/hr. I've never heard of an average group of players getting this much exp before

The WAR had Ares and a freaking Ridill

[Solymir]

Sorry, I should have said why I made that statement. People were saying a lot of this or thats about the other individuals in the party insinuating that they weren't doing as good as they could have been. In all of the bird merit parties I have been in, the "average" ones where people seemed lacking in their performance would be lucky to get near 15k/hr. Even the great parties I have had would only sometimes get close to 20k. My point is it seems like everyone was doing a bang up job in that party. Yes, maybe the warrior could have had better numbers if he didn't have to cast shadows as much as I'm sure he was. Still, I think the point of the original post was that he like most of us are tired of seeing lolpup. We know pup is a great dd, and we're sick and tired of close minded people.

[Sabaron]

I think lolPUP has been gone for a very, very, very long time personally. Problems don't occur until the maton dies. The general problem with PUP as opposed to other DDs ends up being the death of the "weapon". Having a maton die to AoE on something like a boss mob or HNM is where the problem lies. Once the maton is dead, it's like you just took a WAR's weapons and gave him a dagger instead and you might as well have brought someone else. As long as Sharpy stays out of range, he's cool, but they can and do take hate at which time they are susceptible to a quick and violent death.




The DRG must be off his game... That is not good at all for piercing job with such high skill.

Now show me performance vs. Kirin and in Dynamis.

[Hyrist]

I still fail to see what everyone's bias against Colibri are. Yes, they are a low defense mob, but they have decent evasion, and are the prime exp fodder pretty much from 55+. The days of the robber crab and sky camps are over, so why are still holding jobs to that sort of standard?

Before we go "Oh the Parse is Scewed." Lets look at some of the basis facts about puppetmaster:

+ The puppet and master are factored together when it comes to damage, but separately when it comes to hate. (Normal of pet jobs.) Meaning other jobs will typically have one less person to take hate from them. It doesn't matter which camp they use, that's going to deduct off of other DD's maximum.

That's not a screwing of the parse because it's colibri, that's a factor of the job class itself. (This actually sells itself well to any party formats which still would prefer a tank.) Though, it does explain why the DRG parsed so low, he was probably eating all of the Feather Tickles.

- (Sub factor to the one above.) This also allows the master to sub something OTHER than Ninja, as the hate/damage issue is not there where it is with others.

+ Puppetmaster has the ability to switch their puppet frames to match weaknesses of certain monsters (If it is Magical, Slashing, or Piercing.) Again, works for any mobs that fall into that category, not exclusive to Colibri. (Casting Frames against Crawlers is a good example of this.)

+ As the main focus of the job itself is based on the pet, gear is not as large of a performance factor to a class as it is a normal DD. This could have meant the difference when it came to the DRG, and the Samurai. Having the correct combination of attachments can go a very long way for a pup, and as they don't get items like Ridill or Hagun, there's just no way to really compare where the "Gear Factor" works in comparison. As long as the master has baseline melee gear and a good set-up for his puppet, other DD's will be hard pressed to have their gear up to date to beat out both puppet and master.

In the end, as usual, the job gets severely underestimated. Comes as no surprise to me that the instant someone poses a parse, the first complaint is "Omg it's Colibri, it doesn't count." To which I ask, if Colibri, the main Exp/Merit fodder mob of the day, doesn't count, then what does?

[Solymir]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

Now show me performance vs. Kirin and in Dynamis.

This is not an attack or any other type negative response, only adding to the conversation. Didn't someone already posts some decent numbers from using the blm maton against Kirin? I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered someone posting something baout that here.

Speaking of Dynamis, I don't understand why people are okay with drg coming to Dynamis and not pup. For arguements sake let's say both of the characters involved have one other level 75 job and it is thf for both of them.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I still fail to see what everyone's bias against Colibri are. Yes, they are a low defense mob, but they have decent evasion, and are the prime exp fodder pretty much from 55+. The days of the robber crab and sky camps are over, so why are still holding jobs to that sort of standard?

There isn't a bias against. There's a bias toward colibri.

What's so special about getting nice numbers off a weak mob? Anyone could.

[Hyrist]

Speaking of Dynamis, I don't understand why people are okay with drg coming to Dynamis and not pup.

Honestly, if I would have to guess, it would be because the Drg suffers less when his pet dies than say a Beasmaster or a Puppetmaster would.

Dynamis can be HORRIBLE with AoEs and you can't force a Puppet to have shadows and other kinds of defense without harming the abilities that give it a strong offense. That's just me playing devil's advocate there though, through the perception of someone who doesn't know the job in and out. Puppetmasters have probably already made work-around for it.

There isn't a bias against. There's a bias toward colibri.

What's so special about getting nice numbers off a weak mob? Anyone could.

Simple, really.

The common mentality is against jobs such jobs as Dancer and Puppetmaster thinking they can't do anything worthwhile damage wise, even in merit parties. The elitism perspective of a set 5 jobs being "best" for exp/merits have basically implied that all else suck. Which simply isn't the case. You may know better, but that doesn't change the stigma against these jobs.

As far as the Bias toward Colibri, they're prime exp fodder with the majority of their accessible stats visible for someone to compare against: Makes for an easy starting point: Even I made my beginning melee build using Colibri as a base comparison.

So what if they're tougher mobs to merit against, or that there's certain HNMs, NM's etc that certain jobs arn't so good at damage against, most of the jobs have some other sort of utility that still allows them to participate in such activities as their jobs. (Such as the healing and nuking frames for puppetmaster, or the fly-by steps and flourishes for dancer.) Those issues have to be regarded on a case by case basis depending on the actual situation involved.

In this case: Merit parties, they have to justify themselves by the damage contribution they can make. That means primarily Colibri, and other piercing-weak fliers. This parse does and adequate job of saying that a Puppetmaster can hold their own, even if there were factors that were hampering the 'peak' performance of the other jobs in the party.

Honestly, this follows the cycle of idiocy I've seen in situations like this over and over.

Person A: Lolpup, they can't do damage!
Pup: I can do damage just fine, I did great damage in my last merit party.
Person A: Lies!
Person B: Parse or it diddn't happen.
Pup: Fine, here *Post Parse*
Person C: lolibri, anyone can do good damange against that.
Person A: lolpup
Person B: Yeah, who cares about Colibri anyways?
Pup: Wtf?