[IfritnoItazura]

This is sort of a continuation of this thread in the DRG forum; to summarize, I suggested /NIN as a viable support job for DRGs, while other posters say it's inferior in majority of the situation, including the lower level parties I was focusing on in that thread.

The opposing attitude is probably best represented by: (The emphasis is mine.)

Originally Posted by Karinya

Ugh. I would either laugh and come /SAM, or suddenly remember that I had to be somewhere else (depending on mood and whether or not the party actually has important roles filled yet or is one of those "we'll sit around for 2 hours hoping a brd logs on" deals). DRG/NIN is a terrible, nearly indefensible combo. Its damage output is considerably inferior to /SAM's and its damage avoidance isn't even much better

In general, though, I see /NIN as a decent choice from Lv.24 and up, when facing unknown pickup up groups, or any party without two cure jobs, and not just for DRG. Other two-handers like WAR and DRK can benefit from more assured damage mitigation.

While I don't think I'll convince anyone from the /SAM camp that /NIN is often good SJ for two-handers--much less a great idea in mystery pick up groups--perhaps I can at least get people to understand what some of us healers have to deal with in pick-up parties, and why I don't mind 'gimping' the DDs with /NIN.

Lv.55->56 synched party:
(Except for RDM, everyone was present for the entire parse; wished it was DRG/SAM or DRG/WAR vs. DRG/NIN, but DRK/SAM vs. DRK/NIN probably illustrate my point even better. I was invited as a replacement for a ... BRD. ._.; )

Cemolie: PLD/WAR
Blade: DRK/NIN
Rikirocket: DRK/SAM
Toraness: SAM/WAR
Yumesan: RDM (original)
Hagitotuuh: RDM (replacement)
Itazura: SCH/WHM

I don't usually check the gears--but, I do check the results, sometimes. And, I check them with a parser. Basically, as a healer/support member in party, the two things I care the most about regarding the front line jobs (and DDs in particular) are:

1) Doing damage?
Blade.......41792...25.87 %
Rikirocket..43698...27.05 %
Toraness....58581...36.26 %
Cemolie....15501.....9.59 %

:: Rikirocket outputs 4.56% more damage than Blade.


2) Taking damage?
Blade.........6299.....8.59 %
Rikirocket...21024....28.69 %
Toraness .....7665....10.46 %
Cemolie .....36190....49.38 %

:: Rikirocket takes 233.77% more damage than Blade.


So, less than 5% damage output difference, but more much, much more in damage taken. Common sense would tell us Blade's /NIN made a large difference to mages' MP reserve, but if there's still reservation, the parser reports that:


Player....Shadows Used..Shadows Cast...Shadows Cast(Nin)...Efficiency
Blade.....139...........168............168........ .........82.74 %

So, yes, Blade was using of his Shihei supply; he was "under threat" for a good length of time, as his damage output compared to Rikirocket would indicate.

MP was tight even with two healers (AC was gone, by the way), no thanks to the DRK/SAM player; if Blade had not been on 'gimpy' /NIN, chaining would've been even harder. (Chain 3, 9 times; chain 4, 6 times; chain 5, 2 times.)



* * *

Granted, this is just one party, but it's pretty much in line with my experience in general.

Whether you believe MP sponging happens in the majority of pickup up groups I've been in when the DDs go /SAM is up to you, but I'm personally convinced by my experiences with the /NIN players.

* * *

No, the SAM/WAR wasn't an MP sponge--he's one of those rare, even-willing-to-use-defender type; I was pleasantly surprised.

Feel free to claim this is evidence that SAM and /SAM have damage mitigation abilities--I completely agree, and only wish more people would make use of those. (Do keep in mind the party was 55->56, so no Seigan for /SAM, however.)

At the end of the day, when playing as a healer, I don't really care about anything beyond damage dealt and damage taken when it comes to the front line--and, for whatever the reason, /NIN players usually do a better job than /SAM players at the second without doing too poorly at the first, in my own experience. YMMV.

[Durahansolo]

I see what you are saying. However, like you said /SAM Seigan is not available until level 70 also Meditate is not available until 60. At that level the DRK/NIN would have better damage mitigation than the DRK/SAM because "Third Eye" only anticipates once by itself. The SAM/WAR had better damage mitigation than the DRK/SAM and possibly the DRK/NIN too since the SAM had all his tools available to him so technically he shouldn't even be in the discussion lol. If the DRK/SAM kept Hasso up the majority of the fight (and if he had pretty much the same gear/food/etc. as the /NIN) , he would've still had +10 more ACC than the /NIN. Also, you might've should've checked their gear just so you could put together a estimate on possible damage output before you saw the results.

I think it is a valid sub but it should only be used if you know how to manage hate control, if not then wait til you have access to Seigan. I didn't want to take that chance so I subbed /nin until 70 lol. I was in a 55ish party fighting colibri once and the DRG/SAM was no doubt the biggest MP sponge in the party. In that same breath you had 2x DRK in your party, suppose that party would've instead had DRK/SAM and a THF/NIN. SAM/WAR first voked and then PLD gets SATA'd, pretty sure there wouldn't be as much damage output as with two DRKs, but the DRK/SAM probably would've had a better chance of not being the MP sponge.

I used /SAM as a sub for Warrior 70-75 (When I wasn't asked to /NIN) and I love it, I play with the same gear as I do as /NIN, but no matter what I do, I've never been able to hit a 1576+ raging rush with /NIN. I think the closest I might've gotten would've been 1256ish. If Third Eye drops, I still have Retaliation which I almost always have up so I can somewhat return fire until Third Eye gets back up and if it gets hectic I can throw up defender.

tl;dr version I'm pretty sure I probably contridicted myself somewhere in there because I'm rambling.

EDIT: Also probably should've listed the accuracy of both the /NIN and /SAM

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You're doing the classic trickle-down logic of high level tactics vs. a lower level situations. In other words, you've made a very weak case for /NIN over /SAM.

OF COURSE a /SAM is going to take more damage pre-70 - they don't have Seigan. And guess what? /NIN doesn't have Ni. I have seen /NIN users that take more damage just because they zerg like hell and can't lose hate. And that was when I was main healing on SCH. One SAM/NIN was a total MP sponge while the rest of the PT was not. He thought Shadows + Stoneskin + Phalanx would protect him. Damage mitigation means nothing if you're a complete idiot when it comes to hate.

I went RNG/SAM last night in merit, topped out on damage dealing and actually took less damage than the majority of the PT. When I took hate, I had Seigan/Third Eye up. When all the mob does is physical damage, that's all I need. And I can get more out of my Third eye than most with having a high natural AGI, Seiryu's Kote, evasion gear and such.

And that said, both /SAM and /NIN's damage mitigation effectiveness is dependant on gear, Haste and such.

Guess what? We don't have much or any of that at 24 when we get to use /NIN. Unless you have an Empress Pin and Evasion Bonus Traits, you're going to be tagged for a while.

[Ziero]

Subbing /nin in the jungles is laughable at best, a waste of time at worst. You're better off subbing Rng or Drg at those levels for the higher Dmg output so you can kill the mandy faster so you all take less damage overall.

Nin and Sam subs, much like everything else in this game are *completely* situational. Sometimes it's better to /sam others it's better to /nin. Good players will have all options availible. But with Drg specifically, it's very rarely a good time to /nin. Unless the mob has a nasty AoE that can only be blocked by shadows, Drgs will make much better use out of something like /Blu, /Whm or /Rdm. All three will give strong defensive spells while allowing the Drg to use healing breath simply by casting low MP, quick casting spells like Dia and such. Sams can make use of War or Thf while still maintaining their own natural defensive skills and War and Drk will have to judge the situation they're currently in before deciding on what thier sub will be. If you have a good tank, you'll probably want Sam to help kill faster. If you don't have a strong tank, or hell, if you *are* the tank, you'll probably want /nin and as much haste as you can get your grubby little mitts on.

[Firewind]

TBH I always saw /NIN as more of a Merit sub and a sub used for events with a tight timer such as Assault or Nyzul where there is little time to rest and eliminating downtime is more important than anything else.

BBQKitten makes a very good point with the whole attempting to apply high level tactics to a low level situation. At 24 very few jobs even benefit from subbing /NIN. I mean the extra AGI is only really useful for RNG and COR, both of which have subs better suited for their jobs. Also, most XP mobs at that level will destroy shadows within 2 attack rounds which means that you need to bounce hate with another party member to get a chance at putting up shadows.

At Lv30 a couple of jobs do benefit from the elemental wheel though. BLMs, RDMs and SCHs get a bigger bang from their nukes and it can also help enfeebs stick but I don't think that's much of an excuse to stray away from more useful subs in an conventional party purely due to how useful subbing WHM is for the backlines

The one annoying thing about the /NIN subjob is that DDs think of it as an excuse to go all out and forget about hate because they have a couple of free hits. These people are extremely annoying to me, a career White Mage because of several reasons:

1) Hate is everywhere. I can't cure and do my job effectively because if I cure I may pull hate very easily. Yes I do have lots of damage mitigation tools and high level WHMs can tank for a short time but that is beyond the point. I'm not a tank and me having hate means that I am either wasting MP by tanking or simply dying because the mob is too much for a WHM/SCH to handle. Don't get me wrong, I do not mind dying for the party at all. I have RR and I am happy to use it if it will save the party but if you think I'm sacrificing myself because you are stopping the tank from doing their job you have another thing coming.

2) It wastes my MP. The healer cures the tank first and foremost. I should not have to cure the DDs unless they have to take hate or the party is being hit by AoE attacks. DDs taking hate and taking damage means that I am having to cure more damage, use more MP and gain more hate which may push me over the hate threshold. Oh look now I'm using more MP by trying to keep up my buffs and prevent myself from dying.

3) It's a sign of a lazy player not committed to their job or the well-being of the rest of the party. Maybe it's because I'm a WHM or maybe it's because I genuinely like helping people (which is one reason why I love WHM so much) but it really upsets me when you get people who just don't seem to care about well being of the other party members. Each person has a party role, the DD's job is to kill the mob quickly so the tank loses as little HP and hate as possible and I use as little MP as possible. I see a lot of people with /NIN subs simply go all out without much care as to how much this annoys the tank and healer (and probably the other DDs too).

4) It discourages experimenting to unusual subjob combinations. I always like it when someone turns up with something other than /NIN. I'm not talking about someone who turns up with a gimp sub like say a WAR/WHM but I'm talking about people who turn up with less used job combinations like WAR/BLU or RNG/SAM. It's always interesting to see how the subs work. The whole "/NIN only" mentality from people insisting on using high level tactics in low level parties does crush this a bit. I once saw a THF/WAR get booted from a party because according to the leader "Anything other than THF/NIN is gimp lol!!!111eleventyone". There's nothing wrong with a NIN sub but it's not the only sub out there.

5) Your damage output is lowered which causes the tank to take more hits and the healer to cast more cures overall. If the DDs are causing the tank to take more damage by killing too slowly then they aren't doing their job properly.

Another peeve about DDs subbing in is that I never see WAR/NINs or NIN/WARs using their shadows if there is a PLD tanking. This is another annoying thing. If you are a WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR then why not take hate from the tank every now and then and use those shadows? Utsusemi: Ichi is what? Three shadows? That is three hits the tank doesn't have to take which is three hits worth of hate the tank doesn't lose which is turn is three hits worth of cures the healer has to cast and the hits worth of hate the healer gains from curing the tank.

I'm not against the NIN sub. It is a very, very useful subjob and it's a White Mage's dream if it is used properly the less cures I have to cast the better overall for the party. What does annoy me however is the laziness it causes in general as well as the whole "High level tactics always work for every low level party" mentality that seems so prevalent. I'm going to be blunt, I think these people are idiots. Sorry but I don't care how many 75's you have but if you think that meripo tactics will work in the Jungles or Dunes then I'm not going to have a very high opinion of your IQ in the long run.

[Lmnop]

Kinda hard to calculate how much MP would be saved by just killing faster, though. Aside from the moral dichotomy of your "I have respect not to check your gear but I will not only scrutinize your parse, I will post it on a site without blanking out names" outlook, you did not accurately take into account just how much better Blade was geared than Mr. Rocket. I still think your final say is accurate, but the margin of damage increased by subbing SAM is not.

But what do I know? All the melee I'm ever around - DRGs included - only ever sub NIN any more. Happy? The healers won. And now I hate this game.

[Sabaron]

I think that your post implies that people who favor /SAM over /NIN hate /NIN a lot more than we do in general. For some reason, Karinya has some unwarranted animosity toward /NIN.

/NIN does allow for a good bit of mitigation, but what I was discussing in the other thread are alternative methods of hate mitigation for Dragoon only. Because you're using DRKs, there are very few mitigation options available. Since these are also apparently low-level DRKs they are also lacking one of DRKs coolest damage mitigators: Dread Spikes.

Now, keep in mind that I don't hate /NIN and have used it in some parties. I just prefer not to assume that the defensive team in your party always sucks.

My point was specifically for DRG and is based on DRGs ability to use High Jump and Super Jump to mitigate varying amounts of enmity while using Off-Hasso or Seigan Third Eye as a backup. Once you get a feel for the party and the job you will be aware of when an action you are about to perform is likely to capture your target's attention. If you don't have a hate-shedding jump up, the best thing to do is either cancel Hasso or activate Seigan depending on level, throw up Third Eye and then do your hate grab (which is usually a WS).

If you're using /SAM, you are obviously 60+, because, as a sub, it's useless without Meditate. Any situation, therefore, where you are lower than 60th level, /NIN would obviously be preferable to /SAM because /SAM doesn't have the one redeeming ability that it's used for as a DD sub, Meditate. Your party is below 60th level, therefore /SAM is a suboptimal sub as exemplified by the SAM/WAR's complete shut out of the other DDs. Just look at the wonderful performance of the SAM/WAR (who has Seigan). The question here being, why is a 55/56th level DRK subbing /SAM? The sub isn't viable at that level therefore your test is flawed. Test it at 60+ (with Meditate) and then again at 70+ (with Seigan) if you really want to run some good tests.

The other option I was talking about for damage mitigation was that during a period when you have no hate-shedding jump and you should happen to tip the mobs favor in your direction, you can swap in a Physical Damage Reduction gear set like these:

Hydra Mail
Gavial Mail
Darksteel Harness

Each of these sets mitigate 8% of physical damage and the higher end sets have nice bonuses on top of that and increasing defense. If you have a Jelly Ring, you can top off at 13% physical reduction.

In the parse example above, an 8% physical reduction would have saved 1682HP or about 387MP worth of Cure III. The 13% reduction set would be 2733HP or 628MP of Cure III (notwithstanding the fact that a 56DRK cannot wear a Jelly Ring or a Darksteel Harness).

With Meditate, you can also create a 2WS damage spike (and throw a Jump in too) and toss all that hate away at once with a Super Jump. DRG is a very efficient hate mitigator; DRK's enmity mitigation pales in comparison.
I would prefer not to see generalization of subjob based on weapon type (e.g. /NIN > /SAM when using 2-handed weapons) because there are so many other factors involved in choosing a subjob for a specific job, 2-handed or not. Also, in Karinya's defense, she is only talking about DRG/SAM, where you have unfairly inferred that the her distaste of /NIN usage is extending out to other jobs (in this case DRK).

DRKs also have the ability to act as a conduit to convert healing magic into damage through the use of Soul Eater. Your test does not mention if the DRK/SAM was using this ability (although I'll say that I trust that you wouldn't publish data that would be so obviously flawed), I would still like your assurance that there is parity in use of Souleater between your two DRKs because shadows don't mitigate Souleater related damage.

I'm really zeroing in on the SAM/WAR though, because he has Seigan. He did a lot more damage than either of your DRKs and took just 2% more damage than the DRK/NIN, so I'm sure he had a good bit of mob attention, too, unless for some reason he has -Enmity merits. I would be interested to see the "Buffs" output to see if and how often he used Seigan/Third Eye.

I would love to see the raw parse output if you would care to upload it, please.

In fact, anytime anyone posts a parse result (or bases an analysis on one), I would like for them to attach said parse results.

I actually prefer not to see names. If you edit the parse and replace the player's names with their job codes (and a distinguishing ordinal when necessary), it makes the parse output easier to read, and you don't end up with people complaining about whether or not you obtained permission to post said results with names included.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

All the melee I'm ever around - DRGs included - only ever sub NIN any more. Happy? The healers won. And now I hate this game.

No, shitty tanks won. Retarded players won. It's sad to see how far expectations as to performance has fallen. You used to be able to say, 'you're a shitty' tank' now it's, 'you're a shitty tank, but that's ok, I'll just /nin, don't worry about.'

The real question isn't 'how much damage can I mitigate by subbing /nin' but 'why do I have to sub /nin to mitigate damage in the first place?'

As bbqkitten already said, just because it works in merits, doesn't mean it works everywhere.

/fondly remembers parties with tanks that actually tried to tank. It's been a while.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

For some reason, Karinya has some unwarranted animosity toward /NIN.

The only events I do as anything but /nin are events where no one gives a shit if I'm afk for 2 hours straight.

Nothing unwarranted about it. This game is counting to 3, rinse, repeat.

I would agree with Mhurron except for one thing to remember -- we don't need tanks. But that's another front where I agree with Karinya. Design flaw, ergo defacto /nin.

But for endgame (non-merit) situations where tanking is still needed, you still sub NIN because Tourbillion or Body Slam from a flock of dragons in Einherjar will fuck you up otherwise.

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Sabaron

I'm really zeroing in on the SAM/WAR though, because he has Seigan. He did a lot more damage than either of your DRKs and took just 2% more damage than the DRK/NIN, so I'm sure he had a good bit of mob attention, too, unless for some reason he has -Enmity merits. I would be interested to see the "Buffs" output to see if and how often he used Seigan/Third Eye.

Wow. I spoke too soon. I'm glad you pointed this out. Now if only Third Eye would block AoE WSs, I'd be set...

[Nataka]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

/fondly remembers parties with tanks that actually tried to tank. It's been a while.

Yeah it's a shame. I actually gave up on my paladin despite trying my hardest because I was never able to hold hate from the insane people who were busy fantasizing that they were in a merit party. :/


*also misses skillchains, even if they are a pain in the butt at times*

[Tokitung]

Real quick, this is on Ifrit server right? If so, Toraness is a female and she has many Sams from her LS (to include myself) that help coach her on how to be most efficient.

I have to agree with the lack of actual willing tanks. Even Plds I see more and more trying to be DDs than tanks. Hell, we had a Pld/Whm be our healer with a Dnc in pt once. But it is also the mass mentality that this is the way it should be.

I get ridiculed a lot on Nin (62) because I actually try to tank rather than DD. Note, I do a pretty damn good job (good Eva/Haste gear, with constant +4 enmity and hot swapping in an additional +7 Enmity for Voke/Nin debuff spells, and DD gear for WS.) Even though I was keeping hate very well with a Sam, Drg and Rng it pt, I was getting bitched at cause I wasn't "sharing the hate" and using their shadows as well as mine and try to DD more. It makes no sense to me. If I can hold hate (there was even a Thf there that kept bitching at me cause I wouldn't wait for her to SATA me; she took way to long to get setup and the war that was there for a bit of the pt kept getting eatten), that should allow for the DDs to use different, more effective subjob other than /Nin.

People are just lazy now days. If they can find a way to get away with doing shit easy so they don't have to actually work, then they will do it. This mostly resides on the healers and the tanks, i.e. the healer not wanting to heal and be able to cast Banish spells so they can skill up or the tank who wants to not have to hold hate/get decent gear so they can just add a small portion of damage.

[Armando]

Even Plds I see more and more trying to be DDs than tanks.

That's the best way for a PLD to tank in EXP.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm not a /NIN hater by any stretch of the imagination, I'll use it where I really think its warranted, Thing is, I've stopped seeking out the situations where it is warranted. I merit as /SAM or /WAR on RNG. Why? Not because I'm I'm some brain-dead zerging melee, but because I'm fairly certain I can finish what the PT started with the mob.

I will sub /NIN for pulling, but only for pulling things I know can catch me or when there's a really good chance I could pull hate in an event. I do not, however, consider it a default sub for every situation in the game. I trust the tank to do his job, I trust the healer to do their and they trust me to do mine while letting them do their jobs.

The blind, mindless application of NIN - and subbing it because you don't trust pick-up groups is what I'd consider a mindless application - is part of what spoils the fun of this game. For things you don't trust PUGs on, make a static. Its what I did for CoPs both times around.

[Tokitung]

Originally Posted by Armando

That's the best way for a PLD to tank in EXP.

What I'm talking about is why I see Pld/Nin all the time. The ones I'm talking about occationally cast Flash, don't using any other defense abilities and don't really care about who has hate. Too many times have I had to rescue the mage cause the Pld/Nin couldn't hold any degree of hate. It just seems retarded to me that they would sacrifice Provoke/Att bonus/DA for DW/Shadows. Especially since Shadows reduce your enmity. Note that I'm talking about Exp/Merit parties, NOT more specialized events. If we have a Pld in party, he better sure as hell try and tank otherwise I'll get his ass booted.

[Armando]

Sounds like they're just bad then. Even more so if they were using /NIN before 74. There's not much of a point to it is if you don't have Ni.

I'd also like to point out that Double Attack's benefits are halved for Joyeuse PLD/WARs, and Dual Wield II soundly trumps Attack Bonus. Also, taking a hit will cause a bigger loss of enmity than having the mob hit your shadows.