[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I don't know in how many variations I've stated this already, but /SAM isn't the problem--it's the players who pick /SAM who tend to be the problem. I haven't done Lv.70+ parties lately, so no parses, but it was pretty rare to see /SAM people use Seigan.

The majority of /SAM users I've encountered did not switch to Seigan even when the single healer in party is down to less than 200 MP. For whatever the reason, the /NIN players would work much harder than that to keep Ususemi up, while the /SAM people couldn't be bother to use Third Eye, much less Seigan.

If its not the case that the majority of /SAM people on your world are MP sinks, terrific. Too bad I can't move off Ifrit to join you--too many friends here.

I was concurring with you. hehe Not taking a stab.. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I said that I saw what you were trying to say eventually, just not at first. 'izzallgUUd

[Dyft]

Ok, Seeing as how I am a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE hater of DRGs subbing NIN for anything other than events or non tank parties (tp burns etc) I thought I would chime in.

First, I only made it halfway through the thread before i gave up reading any further posts as well most of it is the same crap being said back and forth.

The crap that I kept seeing go back and forth is "this is a PUG you cant trust people in PUGs" The problem with this mentality is that it facilitates the lack of skill you all are complaining about.. you let them suck and you change tactics to compensate. THAT is the problem. First off I dont play in any PT that I'm not the leader for. Now heres were you all make the jokes saying something along the lines of "cuz you get kicked from the rest right?" but no in all honesty its so I CAN kick anyone whos not doing their job.

When I build a party I almost never look at a players subjob especially now a days with a lot of people soloing FoVs while LFP. Most jobs in the game dont solo FoVs with the same sub they xp party with. When I invite someone to my PT I insure that they are aware of what job they will be providing my PT. If they perform their job then I dont care what sub they have, if they dont I boot them. Usually something like "dood you fsking suck.... peace" followed by a boot. I'm not here to make friends, I have plenty of those. Having said that I'm not an elitest either, I just expect for you to play your fsking job. If your a tank and your not taking 80+% of the hits... you're gone... if your a healer and I got people dieing.. if its the healers fault then they are gone.

Start running your own parties and kick the people that dont pull their weight, you'll start to find that you dont have /nin to get good xp/hr. For those of you who are wondering, I do parse, xp included. If you want to see a parse, get lucky enough to get in one of my partys and make one. I dont publish, PERIOD. If you want to know what I do, try and keep up some time you might find out.. if you can make it. Not trying to boast or anything like that.

As most of you have stoped reading the post by now or those of you who scan may have tuned back in by now as its near the end.

I hate drg/nin because /nin lowers a DRGs DPS without offering it even close to the defence you loose in offence.

You say you need X damage to warrent X more damage taken. I say you need x less damage taken to warent x less damage done. Because the MP sinks.. they dont last more then 15 minutes.. its a moot point for me. Surround yourself with quality people not only will your exjoyment and xp/hr go up so will your skill. You play with good people they push you to strive harder and teach you things as you push them to strive harder and learn new things as well. If you play with crappy people they make you lazy.

Then next thing you know your a rng/sam who refuses to pull :D (I know its a cheap shot at BBQ but its mainly in jest) but in all reality if you can equip a ranged weapon and I make one Jump pull your gone.. period... You CANT find any way to justify a DRG pulling over ANY class that can equip a ranged weapon.... and if your too fsking stuborn to go shoot something for any reason and I go get us somthing to kill... your not only being a lazy fsk, You're causing the other party members to loose xp and that pisses me off.

[ShepardG]

RDM/.....

this is going to be awesome. trust me.

/NIN FTMFW!

This totally apply's because Staff is a 2-handed weapon. I win the internetz!

[Evion]

I'm a DRK by trade, so thanks for using that in OP.
1. How come the DRK/SAM is taking so much hate when apparently the SAM was doing 50% more damage and you had a PLD?
2. As mentioned, this whole scenario would be destroyed by post-lv60 parties. (Store TP II and Meditate)
3. Did DRK/SAM have Hasso activated all the time? If so, I'd expect his damage to be more than 4.56% higher. Don't forget the Store TP I he gets as well.
4. Shadows are negligible at best against birds pre-74. (By non-ninja)
5. How similar was their gear? At that level, a Swift Belt and/or Rajas Ring, or some ACC gear could make a noticable difference.
6. In end-game, DRK will need to /NIN for almost everything. Keep in mind that your DPS is 0 when you're naping on the ground...

[Armando]

1. How come the DRK/SAM is taking so much hate when apparently the SAM was doing 50% more damage and you had a PLD?

For starters, PLD tanking birds is an exercise in futility unless he's /RDM. Your damage output is shit, can't use food to raise it, you have no way of accumulating TP unless the mob isn't looking at you, and you have no way of raising your Defense without making your damage suck even more. Secondly, a hard-hitting WS will pretty much turn the mob, no matter how much DoT the SAM is doing, unless the SAM had already WS'd the mob not too long ago, or the SAM WS's the mob directly afterwards. The difference being that the DRK/NIN and SAM have safety nets in place when they pull hate. The DRK/SAM had nothing to hide behind.

2. As mentioned, this whole scenario would be destroyed by post-lv60 parties. (Store TP II and Meditate)

"Destroyed" is such a strong word. The DRK/SAM was already taking assloads of damage more than the DRK/NIN and SAM. At 60 DRK/SAM gets stronger but won't have Seigan for another 10 levels; what good is that extra power if he's clearly already pulling hate as it is?

3. Did DRK/SAM have Hasso activated all the time? If so, I'd expect his damage to be more than 4.56% higher. Don't forget the Store TP I he gets as well.

Not if he had to turn around to shed hate.

4. Shadows are negligible at best against birds pre-74. (By non-ninja)

Avoiding 6 attack rounds is never negligible in EXP. Not only is it damage you're not taking, it's also damage the tank's not taking, which means it's hate he's not losing, and that's extra time you're buying for either the tank to get the mob's attention or someone else to finish the mob.

[Dyft]

Originally Posted by Armando

Avoiding 6 attack rounds is never negligible in EXP.

anything/nin only has 3 shadows Pre 74 which would at best absorb 3 attack rounds... less then that if it was a monk style mob in which case it would last 1.5 attack rounds. Go ahead and say that because of evasion and parries etc that it would last longer.. but if you say that then I can say TEye can last longer then 1 attack round.

[Armando]

anything/nin only has 3 shadows Pre 74 which would at best absorb 3 attack rounds...

3 + 3 = 6. The wonders of having Utsusemi ready before your current shadows expire. Which is pretty much the case for DDs since they mainly pull hate when they WS and that certainly does NOT happen every 30 seconds. More like every 60-70 seconds barring the usage of Meditate or Absorb-TP.

EDIT: By the way, before anyone gets uppity at me with anti-NIN propaganda, I am neither for or against the usage of /NIN. I'm just telling it like it is. That's not to say you can't disagree with me, just have better reasons than "I hate NIN." Seen it happen too many times already.

[hexx]

having leveled multiple 2-handers I gotta agree that /nin takes the cake when it comes to survivability. I'm sorry but if my sam is needed for anything short of a full on, wipe the floor with the mob type of zerg, im going /nin all the way. Why? To keep myself alive thats what, seigan and third eye will only do so much. For drks, they can only really afford to go /sam at 75 thanks to Dread Spikes, and even then its only a short term fix that /nin easily out does in the end. As much as i would like to go war/sam or sam/war or w/e /nin keep me alive the longest over anything else.

[Dyft]

Originally Posted by Armando

3 + 3 = 6. The wonders of having Utsusemi ready before your current shadows expire. Which is pretty much the case for DDs since they mainly pull hate when they WS and that certainly does NOT happen every 30 seconds. More like every 60-70 seconds barring the usage of Meditate or Absorb-TP.

Then I can say TEye lasts 2 attack rounds by that theory or that a DRG could jump 10 times in 3 minutes. Either of those statements are true given the situation you gave.... however we all know how bogus both of those statements sound.

[hexx]

Originally Posted by Dyft

Then I can say TEye lasts 2 attack rounds by that theory or that a DRG could jump 10 times in 3 minutes. Either of those statements are true given the situation you gave.... however we all know how bogus both of those statements sound.

Not really, given that Jump commands have a much higher cool-down timer than utsusemi has (even smaller with haste gear) and TE (before Seigan) lasts only 1 attack round. The only job that can /sam without too many problems really IS drg for the simple fact that they have two jumps that shed partial/full hate, plus the addition of Seigan/TE as well. Yes they have higher recast timers, but chances are at least one of these JAs will be available for use.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Dyft

Then I can say TEye lasts 2 attack rounds by that theory or that a DRG could jump 10 times in 3 minutes. Either of those statements are true given the situation you gave.... however we all know how bogus both of those statements sound.

If you can somehow know exactly when you'll get tp (and therefore, hate) about 25 seconds ahead of time... AND if you count meat tanking the mob for 30 seconds straight, sure.

See, Third Eye is 30 second duration / 60 second recast without Seigan. This means the only time it's up is when you can't use again. Meanwhile, Utsusemi: Ichi has a 30 second recast but 15 minute duration.

Thus, when a /nin puts up shadows, he simply needs to wait 30 seconds before pulling hate. This is easy because typically, a DD/nin will put up fresh shadows just after they lost hate. Come next fight, he still has his fresh 3 shadows and in addition, he can cast utsusemi again. It's a very easy matter to wait 'til the mob swings at you twice and start casting your new Utsu to land after the 3rd swing. Double Attacks will screw you up 10% of the time, but it's still a reliable way to keep the party from avoiding damage.

[Vyuru]

Then I can say TEye lasts 2 attack rounds by that theory or that a DRG could jump 10 times in 3 minutes.

That's a rather foolish statement and I think you know it.

Third Eye only lasts for 30 seconds and then your shadow protection is down. Shadows from Utsusemi last quite awhile even after the recast timer hits 0. Seeing how it is impossible to stack TE shadows by counting on the recast, while it is possible to do it with Utsusemi, Utsusemi does provide a generally better defence.

Besides, this is pre 70, so the Drk/Sam only gets 1 shadow every minute. Whoop-de-frigging-doo.

2. As mentioned, this whole scenario would be destroyed by post-lv60 parties. (Store TP II and Meditate)

So why do we care about #6 since this is neither endgame nor lvl 75?

4. Shadows are negligible at best against birds pre-74. (By non-ninja)

Utsusemi: Ichi > Third Eye. If you cannot figure out why, well.......


Also, why do you write addressing Itazura's OP like you expect him to come back and address it after 3 months of inactivity in the thread?

---------- Post added at 02:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

See, Third Eye is 30 second recast / 60 second duration without Seigan. This means the only time it's up is when you can't use again. Meanwhile, Utsusemi: Ichi has a 30 second recast but 15 minute duration.

You mean that TE is 30 second duration / 60 minute recast without Seigan FYI.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Armando

3 + 3 = 6. The wonders of having Utsusemi ready before your current shadows expire.

You're assuming a perfectly timed replacement cast by a non main NIN? Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch for random pickup party members? If you lose that third shadow without having the replacement cast mostly complete, for any reason including DA, you're not getting the second 3 until *after* you lose hate as a /NIN.

A skilled /NIN offtank can be useful in the right party setup. (Usually WAR, so they can actually controllably take hate when it's desirable for them to do so, and retain the useful abilities and traits of WAR regardless of their SJ.) But not every DD is qualified to fill that role, and certainly not every DD needs to. And DRG isn't a particularly good choice for that kind of tactics anyway - especially given their ability to shed hate and go beyond the hate limit on damage, if they have a subjob that supports their damage.

[Armando]

Dyft: Your argument is completely invalid because you can't Seigan twice back to back. You can't Jump twice back to back. Like Lmnop said, Utsusemi stays active a long time. There's no difference between an Utsusemi cast I did just now and one I did 10 minutes ago; it's just as effective. So you can do it twice in a row by using a previous cast. You can't pop a Jump and "hold it in" for 3 minutes just so you can let it loose when the timer is ready again. You can't pop your TP and put your WS on hold 'til it's ready again and do two WS in a row.

And in the case of Utsusemi, doing it twice in a row isn't the same as using it twice separately in the same time span. For you to get the same benefits using it twice separately, you'd have to have the mob's attention both times. Yet you probably won't be pulling the mob's attention at 30 second intervals.

You're assuming a perfectly timed replacement cast by a non main NIN? Don't you think that's a bit of a stretch for random pickup party members?

It's not like the timing is strict in any way shape or form, and there's only a 6.66% chance to get unlucky with the enemy's DA (10% chance of DA, 1/3 chance that it'll occur on any given shadow out of the three you have, 2 shadows where a DA would prevent you from recasting = 10% * 2/3).

At any rate Itaz's original parse shows that the /NIN user was doing something right. A single parse isn't definitive proof of anything but it's at least one instance of it working well in a PUG. The DRK/NIN took less damage than the SAM.

EDIT: And anyways, if you're going to go ahead and assume that the DD is too incompetent to time recasts, then I would argue he's also too incompetent to exercise any sort of hate control, and would likely end up benefiting more from /NIN than another sub either way.

[Dyft]

Originally Posted by Dyft

however we all know how bogus both of those statements sound.

If you would stop to read the whole statement first it was 2 sentences long. I WAS wrong about the thirdeye which is my mistake. However hes talking about a perfect double ichi... which is the same thing as a drg doing 10 jumps in 3 minutes.. sure its possible.. but how often does it happen? I was trying to point that out with my statement. Not state that either jump nor teye was better or worse or in any way related to utsusemi. so sorry about the teye statement but the jump statement stands... and if you dont know how to jump 10 times in 3 minutes any self respecting drg should be able to tell you