[Sabaron]

My Dynamis shell has recently started discussions on the topic of Lotting Rules for Shadow Ring and Shadow Mantle also included could be items used to upgrade relics such as Attestations, Fragments. This lotting system can be extended to any of a number of shell types in which rare or interesting items are dropped on rare occasion such as Limbus.

Under the following constraints, generate a system of lotting rules for a given item:

1. All metrics and rules must be objective and cannot include arbitrary selections (e.g. appointments or designations by a specific person).
2. A Free Lot rule cannot be the only significant rule in the system.
3. Sponsorship of a given run is not taken into account in the system.
4. The system should be as simple and easily understood as possible.

Note on 2 and 3: Obviously both of these rules can exist in a working system, but for the purposes of a theoretical fair rule system, they are excluded since, under certain conditions, the item is already possessed by all sponsors, or no one meets eligibility guidelines for the item.

The intention of this thread is to produce a number of theoretical lotting systems that will form the basis of a poll.

Preferably specify all metrics to be gathered first and then specify the rules applied to the metrics gathered to determine the ranking or eligibility of a given participant.

[Kailea]

Look at who can use the item first, then who needs it, then from that group have them lot

[Clever Ninja]

According to the rules list, my Dyna shell designates a person who will get the next shadow item. First person that got Mantle was an officer who sponsors and is there to tank for literally every run, and he's involved in the Sky LS thats a sister shell to my Dyna LS, which I'm guessing is how they might do some of their funding for runs also.

If you want a more fair system, just take into account peoples attendance over the last 6 months - 1 year(depending on how long the shell has been around), the persons main job and also their Relic armor lots over the same period. That's just my opinion.

[Vyuru]

For exceedingly rare pieces such as the Shadow Ring/Mantle, I would assume that your LS has certain people who come as tanks to events that these would benefit most, IMO these should initially go to them. Even though someone who always comes as say, Sch to these events may want them, I would still initially give them to the people who could make use of them first. Afterwards if you are still fighting the Shadow Lord for these items or for whatever other reason then I would have the people who are interested in these lots decide what they want, and /random to find the order in which they get them. So if you have two people who want the Shadow Mantle, and one person who wants the Shadow Ring, then the two people /random to figure out who gets their mantle first while the person who wants the Shadow Ring has no competition and gets the first one to drop. Anyone who joins the LS at a later date or decides they want one of these items after this decision has been made gets added to the back of the list. So say that they see that there is only one person in line for the Ring, and decide that they want to go for the rare item due to low competition. Since they decided after the decision then the first person still gets the ring ahead of them.

/randoming to find out the order in who gets what should be done in advance, with either the full LS in attendance or some specified number of people there as witnesses, and should be put into excel spreadsheets so that it's public knowledge to the members.

For Attestions and Fragments it's a little bit different. I would say that anyone who sponsors a run gets to decide what that run is going to do, be it farming coins, farming Attestions/Fragments/town clear, whatever. As such, I also view that the sponsor should choose what items that they get from the run, to a limited extent. They are sponsoring the run, so it's only fair. IMO obviously if they sponsor a run and choose to go after Attestions/Fragments that they should get the one for the weapon they are working on. If they sponsor a run and want to go after coins then they should get all coins that can be used on their relic. This also means that if they need 200 1 Byne Bills to finish their relic, and that run yields 230 1 Byne Bills, they only get 200. If they sponsor a run to work on their relic weapon then any drops that do not go towards working on it go to the LS to be distributed however they wish.

For general relic armor and other armors I would say that people prioritize what they want from the event and come up with a list of the items they want. People who want the same item and are in the same priority pool lot to see the order that they will get the item. Once the #1 priority pool is finished, the people in the #2 priority pool get to start receiving the item. Anyone who joins the LS after this or anyone who decides to change their priorities on an item gets put last in whatever pool they decide to set for that item. If multiple people want a particular item then a /random lot order is decided that is adhered to. If the person who was next for that item is unable to make it to an event when the item drops, it goes to the next person in line. Anything that is not on the lists is free lot or used however the LS deems fit.

So say you have 3 Drks and a Whm who want the Drk relic helm. 2 of the Drks have it set as #1 priority, the Whm has it set as #2, and the third Drk has it set for #3. The two Drks in the #1 pool /random to see the order of who gets it. Once they both have it, the Whm gets the next one, while the third Drk gets it last since he had it set as the lowest priority.



Thoughts on it in general:

I prefer clear cut set in stone decisions made in advance on who gets what item. This is for eliminating drama and loot whoring.

If someone sponsors a run then they should get what they want, to a certain extent, from it.

Lotting orders should be public knowledge and kept track of.




Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I'm a wee bit fevered right now.

[TheGrandMom]

/beginrant (and for that I apologize)

It's hard to make decisions like these when you are a leader. You have the newer players that come to every event for the past 6 months and have kept the ls going. Then you have the older members that attended events regularly in the past but for the past 6 months have only been around once in a while. Do you give the items to the members that have been around longer even though their interest in the game is definately waning? Or do you give the items to the new active members that you know will be at the next event and others down the road?

In most of the shells I've been in, they give the items to the older less active members first and I think this is a shame. We recently had a member come back after being gone for quite a while, he attended 3 or 4 events in a little over a week, we did JOL and Novio dropped, he got it, came to 2 more events after that, and then made a post on the forums that he was quitting the game. So that Novio that could be benefiting the ls is now gone forever. That's a crock of crap.

I've seen too many times where older members leave permanently or for several months right after getting a good drop. Or they decide to retire the job that they got the drop for because they are sick of playing it. I'm sorry but if you are a blm and just got the Novio, expect to be coming blm damn it. If you are a rdm and just got the relic hat, expect to be on rdm. These items benefit the ls and help with the success of events which is what you're shooting for, not for it to sit unused or gone forever.

So my opinion about deciding who gets what is to stick to the HERE AND NOW and not look to the past. Yes, their participation in the past was GREATLY appreciated and they have a special place in people's hearts in the ls BUT they were also handsomely rewarded back in their active days. It's time to reward the people that are keeping the ls on its feet NOW!

/endrant

[DakAttack]

If you can only lot on equipment that satisfies the needs of your current job or role, then you'll find that people may change to jobs they like more for a chance at the respective equipment, rather than what jobs the LS needs.

First of all, I believe each member should be playing the job they enjoy, so as long as it's what the LS requires to function efficiently. You may have somebody healing who might rather deal damage, while you might have another player who would enjoy healing who's currently dealing damage. This situation might be rare, but it has a considerable scope. If they're playing what they like, they wont be lotting on equipment they "currently" can't use, in an attempt to stockpile for other jobs.

If a player is playing a necessary role, than they should have the opportunity to lot for jobs they would much rather be playing. Playing as a White Mage during Dynamis benefits everybody when you have a shortage of healers, so it should be nobody's business to complain if that Whm should lot on Dark Knight equipment. In situations like these, players in the Whm's position should designate one preferred job that they plan to lot for.

In the event of rare items, whatever should benefit the LS is the best course. If your tanks are becoming upset because they're not getting the gear they need to better their efficiency with they might leave, and then nobody gets to fight for the gear they want.

[Sabaron]

One of the situations we are trying to avoid is designation of recipients based on perceived need by the LS. The LS exists for the sole purpose of doing Dynamis--it is not connected with an HNMLS or other shell. This is one of the constraints indicated above since "perceived usefulness" is a subjective metric.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The way I see priority is this:

Sponsor that doesn't have item >
Intelligent, Faithful member that doesn't have item >
Intellegent member that doesn't have item (semi-regular attedance) >
Stupid, but faithful Member that doesn't have item >
Person who rarely attends >
Stupid Person who rarely attends >
Person who only attends Northlands runs >
Stupid person who only attends Northlands runs >
Person with practically no attendance >
Lootwhore >
Drama Queen

[Clever Ninja]

If perceived need isn't involved, then it's not a major issue. Just make it a requirement to have the suitable job at 75, and tack on a suitable attendance requirement + point cost to it(however you do your point system).

[DakAttack]

I always entertained the thought of a point system that totaled the amount of times you've seen a drop you wanted/needed but lost the lot. It would be item specific, and includes elements of attendance and seniority.

But I always thought freelot was best.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

It's hard to make decisions like these when you are a leader. You have the newer players that come to every event for the past 6 months and have kept the ls going. Then you have the older members that attended events regularly in the past but for the past 6 months have only been around once in a while. Do you give the items to the members that have been around longer even though their interest in the game is definately waning? Or do you give the items to the new active members that you know will be at the next event and others down the road?

The people who attended in the past got their reward in the form of the items that dropped in the past. Many people don't like the drop rates and feel that they deserve more than actually dropped, but they're wrong. The people who decide what rewards a group deserves for winning a particular piece of content are the devs, and they've already implemented that decision through the loot system. Turning your LS into a Ponzi scheme doesn't improve this, it just rips off late joiners.

The reward for winning content with guaranteed rewards (e.g. CoP storyline) is a guaranteed reward. The reward for winning content with random rewards is a chance at a reward. You had your chance, and if you do the content again, you'll have another chance. But a chance is all it is. You're not entitled to deprive someone else of their chance because your previous chance came up a loser. Try again in three days (or whatever it is for the particular content you're doing).

There's something about people that makes them vulnerable to a kind of "First you'll be at an unfair disadvantage, but if you stick around long enough, eventually you'll be at an unfair advantage!" system - there's lots of examples throughout history. So you can probably find people willing to join a shell like that, and carry your water for months before they get a chance at any drops. Doesn't make it right.


Drops will be worn in the future, not the past, so to the extent that it's knowable, favoring people who will attend in the future is better than favoring people who have attended in the past - except there's one major problem with this: it stands the purpose of the linkshell on its head. An event linkshell exists to serve its players, not vice versa. Fairness to all players should come before "the good of the shell" - not just because that is hard to define and open to abuse (although it is), but because the good of the players IS the good of the shell.

I've been in the position of being asked not to come as a tank because others had better tank gear, and then passed over for tank gear because I wasn't there as a tank. I'm not in that linkshell anymore (no, I'm not going to name names), but I remember it. Role pigeonholing sucks. Don't do it.


Bottom line: Don't second-guess the players. If you can't trust them you're screwed anyway, and need to address that through your membership policy, not your loot policy. Let players choose something to lot on, and then let them lot on it. The only way to end arguments about "I could have used that better!" is to not start them, or allow them, at all, ever. If they were there, then they earned a chance at the drops, period.

[Nuriko]

My dynamis shell just does main jobs by points, then anything that nobody's looking for goes free lot ... and only one free lot per run.

[Omniblast]

The way that we have always done it in the past is.

You get points for attending dynamis.
You must 1st select 1 AF set to complete, once that is complete you can change sets to another one.
You must bid on the AF if you want it with the points that you have earned. If you don't win the bid then you don't get to lot on the AF.

I think it would work the same way on shadowlord items as well.

[Sabaron]

How about this? This is an example of kind of what I'm looking for and is based on the responses above.

Capped Floating Point System for Shadow Ring & Mantle

Metrics for the Score:

1. Attendance of a Run yields 1 point.
2. Failing to attend at least 50% of a Run yields a penalty of -1 point.
3. Partial attendance (e.g. arriving late or leaving early at least 20 minutes) yields 0 points.

Metrics for the Cap:

1. Meeting the minimum requirements on any job to equip the item yields 5 cap points (You may only take this cap increase once).
2. Having the Paladin Job at level 75 yields 5 cap points.
3. Havig the Ninja Job at level 75 yields 5 cap points.
4. Possession of any shadow item yields -5 cap points.

Rules

1. A player's Score may never exceed his Cap.
2. All players begin with a Score of 0 points.
3. The minimum Score is -5 points.
4. In order to be eligible to receive a given item, it must be selected in exclusion to all other drops available on the run such as relic armor.
5. A player is eligible to "comment" a shadow item if no player with a higher point total wishes to comment the same item.
6. Receiving a given shadow item reduces a player's Score to -5.

Example:

Fred has 12/15 points, Nancy has 6/10 points, and Quinn 10/10 points and no one else in the shell has more than 5 points. Quinn has a shadow mantle. Fred wants to comment Shadow Ring, Quinn wants to comment Shadow Ring, and Nancy wants to comment Shadow Mantle. Quinn is ineligible to comment Shadow Ring because Fred has more points, but Nancy can lot Shadow Mantle because no one else has enough points to contest her.

The system's design is based on the following contributing notions:

That it is desirable:

• to have tanks in possession of Shadow Items.
• to ensure that newer players have a chance to obtain the items.
• for a player to participate in all shell Dynamis activites, not just activities which benefit a player him/herself.
• to distribute items evenly rather than allow a select few players obtain a monopoly on the items.
• to reward long term service.
• to allow a measure of luck to enter in as a factor.

[DakAttack]

Can you explain what exactly comment means? I'm worried it might be something really simple and I'm completely missing it. I don't quite understand the point system either. I think I understand that the more jobs you have at 75 means more points you're able to accumulate, but are those points spent? Do you spend points to lot, or do you prevent others from lotting by simply having more points than them?

And are players really only able to lot on one item, if it drops, after being required to call out which item it is?

People have brought up a lot of good points in this thread. I still think the fate of the LS as a whole should be considered when allotting equipment.