[Celeal]

Another thing I want to add for Skillchain and exp. chain in traditional party:

If your party is pulling like IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT... the exp. chain will break easily, and increasing the risk of downtime, long + dragging battles, etc.

An ideal approach is:
T or VT (build TP, save/recover MP) -> IT or IT+ (Skillchain + MB + bam!) -> T or VT (build TP, save/recover MP) -> IT or IT+ (Skillchain + MB + bam!) -> ....

Picking-a-camp, and pulling is part of it.

[IfritnoItazura]

You can easily go VT or even IT at higher levels for the first pull; chain #1 window is:

Lv.61+: 360 seconds
Lv.51+: 300 seconds
Lv.41+: 250 seconds

With Refresh spell and hMP gear, most mages can probably get back to 95%+ MP before puller bring back a critter for chain#1, if timed correctly.

[Celeal]

Technical, you can pull IT at the start of the chain (chain #0). However, from my experience, that is where the issue with wasted-TP or Skillchain over-kill may come in. You may not see the effect at chain #0, but it may impact the subsequence chains.

[Armando]

Originally Posted by Malacite

1) They're weak to begin with. Until you start doing Light or Darkness (and even then, they're fairly weak unless you can get at least 3 WS in the chain) the damage isn't a whole lot. Though in 30's, it's pretty hard to beat Double Thrust to Viper Bite.

I have to disagree with SCs being weak. Level 1 SCs already do 50% of the closing WS's damage. Being granted an extra 50% damage is quite good. And Light/Dark can't be considered weak at all, since even if you only do one SC, it'll do the same damage as the closing WS. That's a lot, since at those levels a DD can easily close for 400-500 damage, and at 75 it's possible to do 1k. Not to mention day/weather bonuses can actually kick in on them.

Of course, the resist rates TOTALLY kill that.

[Malacite]

Most WS at the lower levels won't hit very hard though other than SATA Viper Bite, SA Sturmwind. A DRK using Souleater can probably break 400 damage too, but most WS will struggle to go over 200.

[LilithAngel]

Originally Posted by Armando

Of course, the resist rates TOTALLY kill that.

Which just makes your entire paragraph previous completely void. It's not just TAU mobs, but I've seen dozens of level 2 and 3 SCs resisted severely, and not just fluke resists, but consistant resists.

On SCs of the element the mob's weak to.

With properly geared DDs.

Even with amazing support from BRDs.

Skillchains are indeed good, but monster resist rates are even better, making them not worth it a lot. Seeing Light or Darkness close for like 50 damage after a 1k+ WS, *consistantly*, kinda lends strong support that SE needs to fix Skillchains so that they're worth something again. Hell, even when I'm soloing Light on Campaign mobs, I'll still see a good resist rate on Light, and I *know* I'm gearing properly for it, so it's not from my end this is getting screwed.

[Armando]

Which just makes your entire paragraph previous completely void.

Not completely void. Pointing out "skillchains are weak" as a problem implies a need to strengthen them. They're already strong enough, it's the second issue (resist rates) that needs dealing with.

Most WS at the lower levels won't hit very hard though other than SATA Viper Bite, SA Sturmwind. A DRK using Souleater can probably break 400 damage too, but most WS will struggle to go over 200.

Tachi: Enpi, Double Thrust, Combo all put out good numbers when your target isn't 10 levels higher than you.

EDIT: Look at it this way LilithAngel. Suppose BLM magic accuracy was stupidly low for some reason. It's like saying Thundaga III is weak. No, it's not, it gets resisted a lot. It's inaccurate to say it is.

[LilithAngel]

Ok, fair enough. I can see that. However, the fact remains that SE needs to fix SCs (as one way or another, they're broken) to make them useful to the point people want to start doing them again. When the resist rates are bad on a target that's no more than EP-EM ffs, then you know something's wrong.

[IfritnoItazura]

I've seen "amazing BRD support" for SC only in static parties. Otherwise, the Threnody is brought out probably some special fights--when the BRD isn't too busy being rotated between melee parties for Soul Voice attack songs.

That, and BRDs singing random songs for skill up during exp because they are bored.

[Raydeus]

Skill... chain? Skillchain, skeeellchain...

Nope, no idea what the heck that is.

[Eiyoko]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Skill... chain? Skillchain, skeeellchain...

Nope, no idea what the heck that is.

You just made me cry on the inside.

[Neomage]

Maybe SE could make it so that on standard monsters(i.e., non-NMs) Skillchains and the following Magic Bursts are 100% unresistable. After all, skillchains are a tactical advantage over the monster, and the tactical part seems to imply you would catch the enemy off guard or completely overwhelm it.

This would solve the resist issue, and give an incentive to jobs such as even Dark Knight to MB if possible.

[Malacite]

I believe I said that already in my earlier post

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that though. Other people have suggested being able to MB elemental weaponskills, which would be pretty cool.

[Coinspinner]

Oh damn, Freeze MB on crabs was a nightmare. Apart from the usual resist rates when you are the lowest level in a party fighting IT+, which always happened to me, they have that Shell WS that they love to use after the first WS in the chain, halving the SC and MB damage.

I recall an old video (by Rykoshet, I think) where they pulled off a 5 or 6 man SC on Lumberjack. The damage of the final Light chain was kind of amazing. It makes me wonder if SC power was balanced against such improbably long chains. I wonder if it wouldn't have been wiser to balance it around the common two-step SC and simply allow the chain to be extended rather than giving it increasing bonus damage per step. And perhaps take into account the damage of the opening WS too, so we didn't have to be so picky about closers.

Slightly off-topic

Another thing this thread has brought to mind is the first time I saw a SC in action. I know of them from reading this and other forums (anybody remember the term "Incurve?") But somehow I'd missed that they were elemental, or resistible, or that they had this big splashy magical effect. I thought the second weaponskill was just powered up somehow. I wonder if that assumption I had made wouldn't be a better way to have done things.

Originally Posted by Malacite

I believe I said that already in my earlier post

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that though. Other people have suggested being able to MB elemental weaponskills, which would be pretty cool.

That might be a bit helpful at low levels for jobs with no really good Physical WS yet. And tanks, who both have a surplus of elemental WS and are often too busy to coordinate for a SC, they could just react to one they see. Or if mages could get TP for casting spells, since they are more likely to have the MAB and INT to make it work. Gust Slash has range like Mistral Axe! Give low level BLM and SCH a Kris with +Int or +Skill, it'd be fun... till elemental staves come into play anyway.

(I'm still upset BLM can't use Mercurial Kris. Yeah yeah, BLM that melees, ur teh suq, level a real melee job, whatever. )

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Coinspinner

Oh damn, Freeze MB on crabs was a nightmare. Apart from the usual resist rates when you are the lowest level in a party fighting IT+, which always happened to me, they have that Shell WS that they love to use after the first WS in the chain, halving the SC and MB damage.

True, but most mobs don't have that. Aside from Shell or something crazy like Stone on a cockatrice, MB resist rates are pretty damn low IMX. As a RDM I could land MB fire3 or thunder3 reliably on Uleguerand demons, which are as high if not higher than anything commonly exp'd on today; and RDM have what, C elemental magic?

Four WS at 125% that each get a 50% bonus to their damage from SC effect are going to beat the crap out of five at 100%, regardless of what the WS is.

Although it does seem that Imps, specifically, resist everything a lot (except Dark, which they REALLY resist a lot). So maybe they're not a good example - but as mentioned upthread, it's hard to SC on them anyway because of amnesia. Fight something else. :D When was the last time you had trouble with the resist rate of light on bones? Could it be... never?

Try fighting something that suits the DDs you have, rather than the trendiest overcrowded hellhole on your server... well, that's what I *would* say, except that exp/hr is so massively imbalanced between different camps since TAU, it's kind of a waste of time to not ride the gravy train.

And perhaps take into account the damage of the opening WS too, so we didn't have to be so picky about closers.

That would be a neat idea. If you make the base SC damage dependent on the opening + closing WS damage, that'd nearly double the base power of SCs right there (not quite double because of the current tendency toward SATA closers etc., but pretty good). For longer chains you could just keep adding WS damage to a running total, which would remove the need to also improve the multiplier per step in the chain.

Another effect of skillchains that I don't think I've seen mentioned so far in this thread: supposedly the SC effect's hate follows the closing WS, if it is TA'd. But in the Empire of Utsuspam, hate manipulation is even more of a lost art than skillchains themselves...