[Macht]

Originally Posted by Shopee

the means have supreme veto power over the ends (although this overriding factor does not necessarily come into play.)

clarify that, as it sound you just agreed that the means is more important then the end. Then parenthesis it stating even though means is more important it doesn't come into play?

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Macht

clarify that, as it sound you just agreed that the means is more important then the end. Then parenthesis it stating even though means is more important it doesn't come into play?

It doesn't necessarily come into play, meaning just because I have a goal and pursue it does not mean I am going to be using means that would override the motivation to achieve the ends.

For instance, let's say that I want a million gil.

Why? Well I've never had that much in my life (in one lump sum at least) and I think it would be sorta neat. This is the end, and I would like to achieve it.

Now, it's very possible I could run out to Giddeus and farm Beehive Chips for this end. It would very likely be dull and uninteresting, however the end in this case is more important than how much I enjoy getting there.

On the other hand, I could try and scam gil off of people, lying and cheating my way to my sum of one million gil.

I would not pursue the second option because while wanting one million gil might justify boring means, but it would never justify dishonest and immoral means.

[Maju]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The world is now safe once again due to your heroic efforts. There is nothing on the entire intarweb that says anything about Level 50 being the point where every player magically isn't a newb. You stop being a newb when you get yourself together and play smart, not when you complete G1.

Please pull your head out of your ass.

In my opinion, yes anyone past L50 is magically not a newb. At that level every job already has its most important job abilities and spells, so more likely than not they have experienced most of what there is to know about the different jobs and how they operate in a party.

G1 is also a very good filter. Most of the ADD kids will stop playing at this point.

Playing smart has nothing to do with not being a newb. A newb can play smarter than someone with several jobs at 75. If a newbie does his/her research and puts effort into the game he/she can play better than a non-newbie. You obviously think being a newb means you're a crappy player, but no, that's not what it means.

[DrkMateo]

Originally Posted by neighbortaru

2. how do you not know the JP newbies aren't simply being told to level in Korro and thus adhearing to sheep mentality too?

I was wondering the same thing myself, way back when I first went to the dunes (got to 15 warpting in ghelsba outpost and the general san d'oria area, no one told me about the place til level 17) there were a few japanese players here and there, but eventually as time passed I saw them less and less, Valkurm seems to be the chosen NA spot and the JP's prefer K tunnel.

I can't help but wonder if the higher level jp's are just telling them to go to the same place.

[Icemage]

Let's leave the insults out of this, shall we? The two of you have different definitions of the same word; please agree to disagree and move on.

The fact is, yes, level 51+ does in fact weed out a lot of bad players. Particularly the anti-social ones who chose not to make any friends because they didn't think they needed any. Artifact Armor weeds out even more bad players. Players with short attention spans and no patience will often get stuck trying to get their artifact armor.

The level span between 51-60 gets rid of a lot of the weaker-willed players. I've known a handful of casual players who have, instead of taking on the challenge of G1 + AF, chose to drop their current job and move to another job instead.

Even so, it doesn't get rid of unskilled players. Certain jobs simply skate through the levelling process (BRD especially, though RDM and WHM also get a lot of leeway), and there's a lot of mediocre or even terrible players out there even at level 75 in those jobs. I'm also seeing a lot of really terrible BLMs at end-game of late due to the predominance of manaburn parties; these players don't know how to magic burst properly and don't know how to handle themselves defensively in a fight.

While most people ought to have learned how to play their jobs correctly by level 50, it's a sad fact that not every apple in the barrel is a shiny one, and not even G1 can stop them all.



Icemage

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Shopee

It doesn't necessarily come into play, meaning just because I have a goal and pursue it does not mean I am going to be using means that would override the motivation to achieve the ends.

For instance, let's say that I want a million gil.

Why? Well I've never had that much in my life (in one lump sum at least) and I think it would be sorta neat. This is the end, and I would like to achieve it.

Now, it's very possible I could run out to Giddeus and farm Beehive Chips for this end. It would very likely be dull and uninteresting, however the end in this case is more important than how much I enjoy getting there.

On the other hand, I could try and scam gil off of people, lying and cheating my way to my sum of one million gil.

I would not pursue the second option because while wanting one million gil might justify boring means, but it would never justify dishonest and immoral means.

The beehive chips idea is kind of my point though. Why do something like that alone, you accepted being bored in the means just to achieve an end result (End justifing the means). Why bother with it if you are just going to bore yourself.

I know I wouldn't and my LS doesn't either, any farming we do it's usually with a part of the LS members and it's often different places exploring tied with it. As a result money has become less of an issue for my LS, almost every member has at least 1 mil to spend however they like.

Some of them love to play the AH with it, gambling on items that will have a price spike after the update. Some have done good with it getting items that previously were 10k before the update and reselling for 300k or more.

Nothing requires you to bore yourself or to cheat other people to reach that achivement, and shouldn't have to. If you focused only on getting the end and accept being bored you accepted that the ends justify that boredom or whatever means you applied to reach that end.

For me ends justifing a means breaks down to being that any form of means that I would view negatively. Meaning boredom, ripping a player off, getting angry, pissing someone off intentionally, etc...

Then again it depends which way you use it's meaning ends justifying it's mean in a negative or positive sense. If set a goal to do something and the means ends up improving others as well then the ends is more then justified by the means.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Macht

Why bother with it if you are just going to bore yourself.

Because there are things more important than fun to some people

Just to clarify, the example I gave was not a good one.

Obviously there exists an option to enjoy yourself and make your way there.
This is not, however, always the case.

[Queen Uma]

I thought I would test Maju's theory today given that we are both roughly in the same time-zone.

I ran a search during Jap peak time for all players level between 15-20. Of the 112 players found this is what I got.

35 - Weren't in Kor tunnel, VD or one of the surrounding zones (6 were actually in cad marsh )

60 - Actually in VD

12 - In surrounding areas ie. Kon Highlands, La theine, Selbina.

5 - In Kor tunnel 2 nin/rng, 1 whm, 1 blm and a blu. (blu was not in pt)

Soooooooooooooooooooooo I spoke to the party in Kor tunnel and guess what. They were English, proper British folk in a static party, one of them even knew what a numpty was. Yay!.

Perhaps I should also mention that an awful lot of the players in the dunes had a little "J" in the search window and not an "E".

Now I'm not saying this is conclusive evidence as I don't have any means of checking on other servers except Remora but it does seem to show that everyone heads down to the dunes for those levels regardless of what country they're from.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by Shopee

Because there are things more important than fun to some people

Just to clarify, the example I gave was not a good one.

Obviously there exists an option to enjoy yourself and make your way there.
This is not, however, always the case.

Lol, you ever hear of the "Mayonase Jar and Two Cups of Coffee"?

It definatly fits this here.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Macht

Lol, you ever hear of the "Mayonase Jar and Two Cups of Coffee"?

Actually I have not, although I'd be very interested to.

[Spinnthrift]

Why are NA's (really really stereotyping here, but what the hell - it's fine for racial typecasting nowadays) obsessed with Valkurm...?

The same reason everyone else is.

To work on their sun tans.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Spinnthrift

Why are NA's (really really stereotyping here, but what the hell - it's fine for racial typecasting nowadays) obsessed with Valkurm...?

The same reason everyone else is.

To work on their sun tans.

I woulda thought it was psychotic masochism.

[Murphie]

No tan for me, thanks. Pale is beautiful! Also a bit less cancer~y. That said, I still don't really know why they all go there. I'd much rather exp elsewhere, but you go with there the people are.

[Spinnthrift]

I like the Dunes. I'll Exp anywhere.. but I still like Valkurm.

Too many good memories that outweigh the bad ones.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Aelathir

No tan for me, thanks. Pale is beautiful!

There's a reason it's called 'fair-skinned'.

To be honest I never got sun-tanning (but that's taking this WAY off-topic).

On the subject of the Mayonnaise Jar and Coffee, I looked it up.

It's an interesting enough analogy, although I'm not entirely sure how you see it fitting. I guess I'll toss my interpretation out there.

Fun and friendships are sand.

Ethics, integrity and people are the golfballs.