[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Maju

Where did I say levels don't matter? What elititst attitude? Please elaborate.

Anyone under level 50 is a newb, right? Those who are over 50 should know their job, and not be newbs. You said that people who are over 50 still don't know what's going on, which kills your overcritical generalization. Now what does this tell us? Either you're a retard magnet, or your observation is flawed. If it's the former, then I'm sorry. But if it's the latter, then you need to remove your head from your ass. I mean no offense, but that's what I gathered from your earlier post.

As for the topic at hand, Valkurm is newb school. That's where we learn how to make proper macros and new Warriors ask the question "How do I used Provoke?" as well as being the place where all melee classes should start learning what a skillchain is, and mages should learn what an MB is. Korroloka is a little bit advanced for most new players, most of whom are unfamiliar with a moving party setup.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Anyone under level 50 is a newb, right? Those who are over 50 should know their job, and not be newbs. You said that people who are over 50 still don't know what's going on, which kills your overcritical generalization. Now what does this tell us? Either you're a retard magnet, or your observation is flawed. If it's the former, then I'm sorry. But if it's the latter, then you need to remove your head from your ass. I mean no offense, but that's what I gathered from your earlier post.

You are confusing a normative and descriptive claim here. Maju is arguing that those over 50 should know how to play their job (in other words Maju expects them to, not necessarily out of observation but out of obligation), but that unfortunately whether they ought to know their job or not is irrelevant and there are still those that do not, in fact, know their jobs.

Just because something is a certain way does not disqualify that it should be another way.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Shopee

You are confusing a normative and descriptive claim here. Maju is arguing that those over 50 should know how to play their job (in other words Maju expects them to, not necessarily out of observation but out of obligation), but that unfortunately whether they ought to know their job or not is irrelevant and there are still those that do not, in fact, know their jobs.

Just because something is a certain way does not disqualify that it should be another way.

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless is what I gathered from what I quoted. I am of the opinion that your character's level has nothing to do with how much or how little you know about the game. You know what I used to get during LS discussion about things that are entirely based on theory? "STFU newb, you're not high level, you don't know what any of this is about." Even though they don't know either. Screw that attitude, it's far too prevalent ingame and on every single Forum dedicated to this game.

This entire topic started by calling out every single new NA player, slapping them in the face and calling them ignorant. I'm not trying to defend new players because I know alot of them to be misinformed, but how else are they to know where to go when there's LSes ingame that shun newer people and flame them for trying to learn? If Maju really wanted to do something about this, he'd be ingame right now trying to encourage people to go to different, better exp areas. I guarantee that the majority of his personal experience with people bitching about going to places that aren't the "norm" are from maybe two experiences.

One other thing that needs to be addressed I already mentioned above, and that is the "high levels" who pass on information as if it were divine mandate. Newer players tend to believe the lvl 75 RNG in their LS who hasn't leveled a lower job in 8 months over someone who they never met who actually knows what they're talking about. I used to make parties in the maze of Shakhrami all the time, and they rocked, but now that zone is devoid of life save for Argus campers. The problem here is not NA players being stubborn and ignorant, it's high level players in their Linkshells who drill crappy information into their heads.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless is what I gathered from what I quoted.

Let us analyze a previous statement, shall we?

Originally Posted by Maju

Past L50 I expect anyone I PT with to know how to play their job. Sadly it doesn't always go like that.

Now, let us adjust to what was the real meaning:

Orly? 50+ shouldn't be newbs, but they [sometimes] are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless

Now, that second clause really doesn't seem to follow does it? You argue that people shouldn't have an elitist attitude. It does, however, appear that certain people do (from your opinion), this does not actually make your statement meaningless does it? I assume not, as you just wrote exactly that down in the second half of your post. To exemplify, I shall rephrase:

Orly? NAs and other players shouldn't be elitist, but they sometimes/often are, which makes everything I just spent time typing completely pointless

Please, there is no need to be so vitriolic.

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

I am of the opinion that your character's level has nothing to do with how much or how little you know about the game. You know what I used to get during LS discussion about things that are entirely based on theory? "STFU newb, you're not high level, you don't know what any of this is about." Even though they don't know either. Screw that attitude, it's far too prevalent ingame and on every single Forum dedicated to this game

Well, I agree an elitist attitude is wrong, and can be pretty prevalent (which is somewhat disgruntling) and am sorry you got mistreated like you did. The problem is, I think you're extrapolating a bit much from what Maju posted and are incorrectly assuming that they hold the same elitist attitude that has troubled you in the past.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Shopee

Well, I agree an elitist attitude is wrong, and can be pretty prevalent (which is somewhat disgruntling) and am sorry you got mistreated like you did. The problem is, I think you're extrapolating a bit much from what Maju posted and are incorrectly assuming that they hold the same elitist attitude that has troubled you in the past.

All I have to go on are posts and topics, much like this one. Sure, I assumed. But that's all the interweb allows. Speaking of which, here's an assumption. In my earlier post I italicised a sentence. This was not my opinion, but a quick summary of what I could remember from the previous quote. You already knew that though, which is why you decided to rub it in my face. There's an assumption for you. Yeah, I know. It's wrong. I'm aware that I'm incorrect in thinking that. Oh shi-

In all seriousness, the way I see things is that all high level players are elitist pricks until proven otherwise. I don't go out of my way to talk to them, I don't act like a jerk toward them, I just do my own thing. More often than not I've been right in that assumption. There's been far too many incidents during the time I've played for me to have an optimistic attitude toward anyone in general. I don't talk much as a result.

[Maju]

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Speaking of which, here's an assumption. In my earlier post I italicised a sentence. This was not my opinion, but a quick summary of what I could remember from the previous quote. You already knew that though, which is why you decided to rub it in my face. There's an assumption for you. Yeah, I know. It's wrong. I'm aware that I'm incorrect in thinking that. Oh shi-

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a bit drowsy, but I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

Also, it was not my intention to rub anything in anyone's face, I was only trying to indicate that there was a problem in your argument against Maju's statement, and perhaps your criticism or interpretation were somehow misguided.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Shopee

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a bit drowsy, but I couldn't quite make out what you were trying to say here. Could you elaborate?

Your last post centered around that particular sentence, and I was just being an ass when I wrote that.

Originally Posted by Shopee

Also, it was not my intention to rub anything in anyone's face, I was only trying to indicate that there was a problem in your argument against Maju's statement, and perhaps your criticism or interpretation were somehow misguided.

I'm well aware of problems with my argument, I do not need you to inform me of them. Unlike most people, I consider what I'm saying before it's said. Of course, that doesn't always mean I refrain from saying it.

Originally Posted by Maju

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The world is now safe once again due to your heroic efforts. There is nothing on the entire intarweb that says anything about Level 50 being the point where every player magically isn't a newb. You stop being a newb when you get yourself together and play smart, not when you complete G1.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

I'm well aware of problems with my argument, I do not need you to inform me of them. Unlike most people, I consider what I'm saying before it's said. Of course, that doesn't always mean I refrain from saying it.

Well I'm wondering why you choose to throw illegitimate criticisms at people when you are aware of their fallacious nature.

That aside, when you do decide to post your arguments, unless you post a segment discussing your awareness of your own argument's problems, it is usually assumed that you are posting them with the opinion that they are for the most part correct and accurate.

[dirtyclown]

Originally Posted by Shopee

Well I'm wondering why you choose to throw illegitimate criticisms at people when you are aware of their fallacious nature.

I blame the schools. Actually, I blame the fact that I find arguments on the internet to be hilarious. I find humor in alot of mundane things.

Originally Posted by Shopee

That aside, when you do decide to post your arguments, unless you post a segment discussing your awareness of your own argument's problems, it is usually assumed that you are posting them with the opinion that they are for the most part correct and accurate.

lol, assumption. See? It's funny to me, I don't know why. If you and I were talking face to face you'd see exactly what I've been getting at and probably have a laugh too.

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

I blame the schools. Actually, I blame the fact that I find arguments on the internet to be hilarious. I find humor in alot of mundane things.



lol, assumption. See? It's funny to me, I don't know why. If you and I were talking face to face you'd see exactly what I've been getting at and probably have a laugh too.

Well, I hope you enjoy your laughs. Goodness knows I enjoy mine.

Assumptions are one of the most common things made by human beings, they're pretty much unavoidable. You just have to avoid the unreasonable ones.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by dirtyclown

Thank you, Captain Obvious. The world is now safe once again due to your heroic efforts. There is nothing on the entire intarweb that says anything about Level 50 being the point where every player magically isn't a newb. You stop being a newb when you get yourself together and play smart, not when you complete G1.

Actually there has been statements before in the past of when the game knowledge starts presenting itself in the players (Purely observational of course). The start of US release it was around lv. 20 once you pass that you had an understanding of much of the game's functions and process.

The first raise after that was after the Christmas rush in which the players having good game knowledge was judged to be around 30. As new content got added and pace started ramping up of the new content the level for game knowledge advanced to 40, then 50, and currently debated between 50 and 60.

I've never really participated in those debates, because as I stated their basis are to much of a person's visual perspective agreed upon by a group.

[Queen Uma]

Sorry to detract from the conversation but.....

Originally Posted by Maju

Newbie = an inexperienced player. Your competence as a player does necessarily not have anything to do with experience. Thus an excellent player, who has yet to reach L50 is still a newbie.

Maju by your reasoning everyone is a newbie from level 1 to level 75 regardless of the job they are levelling. Every single level brings new experiences and new aspects to the game whether its in the form of a new job ability, levelling zone or just a few more hp/mp to aid you. So the only possible way of not being a newbie is to level every job to 75, delete your character and then start again.

You are persistant in forcing your belief of people in Valkurm being newbies. Now given that alot of jobs in the valkurm levels are very similar in their style of play someone returning to the zone on their 3rd of 4th visit could be regarded as being experienced. So they would know which mobs to fight, what aggros to what and where the best camp spots are. This person could in turn be a complete Kor tunnel newbie and therefore be unwilling to venture out to a place that may or may not provide better experience.

On a good day with an average party that has dunes experience but no Kor tunnel experience, they are more likely to make better xp in VD.

[Macht]

Originally Posted by queenuma

You are persistant in forcing your belief of people in Valkurm being newbies. Now given that alot of jobs in the valkurm levels are very similar in their style of play someone returning to the zone on their 3rd of 4th visit could be regarded as being experienced. So they would know which mobs to fight, what aggros to what and where the best camp spots are. This person could in turn be a complete Kor tunnel newbie and therefore be unwilling to venture out to a place that may or may not provide better experience.

On a good day with an average party that has dunes experience but no Kor tunnel experience, they are more likely to make better xp in VD.

Can understand players being nervous to try an area they are unfamiliar with for EXP'ing. I can't agree with their down right refusal to try it though. For me it's more of a display of them lacking an exploring nature, so in essence not playing the game for just the simple sake of experiencing it. More playing the game in attempt to reach some form of bragging right to rub in people's faces.

Nature of such presents itself when you see how many of the stuck up high levels and the quantity of them being the similar quantity that refused to try new areas (Stating by my own statistical observation of players I know in game). In game I'm a very big social creature, my tells and communication in last adventurer stats was peaking near 4 mil.

I refrain some adding silly quotes or something for every action I do. So communication resulting from announcing party pertinant data is at a minimum. The people that log on during the time I generally do I've talked to a large quantity of them and have blist a large quantity out of some bad differences of opinion the two of us would have (Blisted all up till it seemed to of break on me, can't add more and can't seem to remove them).

[Shopee]

Originally Posted by Macht

More playing the game in attempt to reach some form of bragging right to rub in people's faces.

Or just for the sense of accomplishment. Bear in mind that that motivation doesn't necessitate bragging.