[Raydeus]

By the way TM, can you post the gear you were using on PLD at the time compared to what you would've used as RDM?

Your main 2 sets for each job would be enough.

[Taskmage]

You say all that, and yet I haven't heard anything from you that would suggest those statements are wrong. I am thinking about selling my pld gear, and you've given me no reason to reconsider even for a second.

If you want to feel insulted that badly, I'm certainly not going to stop you. I said from the get-go that was not my intention, and so far you're the only person that hasn't been able to handle this exchange maturely.

Anyway, I've made my decision.

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Raydeus

By the way TM, can you post the gear you were using on PLD at the time compared to what you would've used as RDM?

Your main 2 sets for each job would be enough.

Ahhm, the sets for two main hate spells were linked in my second post. For shield bash and sentinel I use IR sallet and warwolf belt rather than turban and swift. I don't have any enmity boots yet. For Cure III I swap in gigant mantle, bomb queen ring and intruder earring for +195 max hp; that's on both jobs. Rdm uses the same gear for all hate spells, and doesn't do anything special between hate actions since there isn't much time between hate actions. On pld between flashes I use suppa, brutal, 2x woodsmans, c.chain and my haste gear. Don't usually swap hauby but I guess I should.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

On the matter of actual constructive conversation, I don't consider this effective co-tanking. Taking turns solo tanking requires much more from each tank and leaves you much more open to the possibility of having no tank at all.

While it's true that perfectly balanced co-tanking is the best, in practice imbalance happens more than often enough to me that I just live with not-quite-even enmity and called that the norm. I was the better enmity generator of the two PLDs so the monster was on me 70% +of the time in the first few minutes, but I had bad luck on one Ichi cast, and d/c'ed twice (three times?!). So I was both ahead and behind for much of the fight. lol.

Originally Posted by Taskmage

So it's important to be able to reach that equilibrium again, which is why it bothers me so much that I wasn't able to do it while using my mp at the maximum sustainable level.

As laudable as that goal is, I still don't think it's that important if the other tank is soloing that well.

Still, if you must, for PLD, can make use of Sentinel, Chivalry, Devotion from WHM, using the HP cheater to cure routine. Can also do things like boot the BRD from party for half a minute, move the SAM in for TP and toss out an extra Atonement. Or, request that only you get TA WS for a while, until you catch up.

* * *

Now that you got me thinking about turning monster on demand, it would seem like RDM is much better for that than PLD, since it has multiple substantial enmity spells, meaning a RDM isn't under as much recast constraints as a PLD, even if individually those spells are not as strong as a Flash.

One more point in RDM tank's favor.

[Empedocles]

YUCK YUCK please see previous, THIS was meant to be the actual post, hope it's less butthurt.

Originally Posted by Taskmage

You insinuating I'm an asshole who just sucks at pld doesn't add anything to the conversation. >_<

First of all, I didn't insinuate anything. Unlike a lot of people it seems, I actually say what I mean, and select my words to convey what I want to say best. Unfortunately, often people either skim or just generalise my sentences so they think they read something that's no there when they should be taking the words at face value. It's a problem I have run into time and time again these past years, with far too many people.

If I think you suck at Paladin, I'll actually say: "You suck at Paladin". If I think you are an asshole, and want you to know I think you're an asshole, I'll actually say: "You're an asshole" Therefore, this -

Originally Posted by Empedocles

Maybe the guy in the actual tanking spot was just doing better than you?

(Note the 'maybe' and the question mark at the end.) Means just that. There could be a number of reasons why he was doing better than you.... the 5+ minutes you spent inactive could be one.

Originally Posted by Taskmage

How is it that you think I'm gloating? "Haha, stupid plds I wasted days of my life leveling your job. Suckers!" It doesn't make any sense.

I was actually referring to the fact that in the first sentence, you are trying to defend Paladin, but in the second crush it.

Originally Posted by Taskmage

Before I even start I want to say this isn't meant to be an lolpld post. I'm not trying to gloat, but having leveled both rdm and pld to 75 and gotten to tank with both, I have no idea why I even bothered with pld.

Sounds contradictory, yes?

I really can't help you with suggesting any strategies/guides what-have-you because you are beyond anything I can teach.

In terms of contributing.....

Originally Posted by Empedocles

What the hell is the point of Paladin?

Easy: It's the go-to tank.

I can't think of anything right now that a Paladin cannot tank.

Can a Red Mage tank better than a Paladin in some situations? Sure. Is it better to use a Warrior instead of a Paladin sometimes? Perhaps.

Answered the title of the thread.

Really, making a thread with that title in the Paladin forums is just begging for conflict with somebody.

Perhaps you should hit your Admin Button, change the name of the thread to something less inflammatory like 'PLD vs RDM endgame tanking discussion' or something and delete my posts.

[Armando]

Empe, he's not being derogatory. He's being realistic. As a career PLD I take no offense to what he's said, because I can see how he'd prefer RDM to PLD for tanking. PLD has a bigger safety margin, but RDM can still exceed PLD at taking nukes, MP endurance, recast timers (which translates directly into survivability), and maintaining enmity. Those are all pretty significant areas of tanking.

There was nothing wrong with the thread title if you actually read the post and understood where he was coming from. If you understand the value of your job you don't have to take offence to anyone questioning its value, much less when the thread wasn't meant to be inflammatory in the first place.

[Empedocles]

Yeah seriously I agree with the fact that Red Mage can a better tank, but his first few posts seemed really contradictory, saying PLD is good with one hand then slapping it with the other... makes no sense to me.

Also, anyone taking me out of context and putting forth that I'm saying something I'm not, really, really gets maggots up me arse, regardless of who they are.

Edit: Not an attack on TM whom I'm writing an apology message to as soon as I'm done writing this edit. /headdesk /headdesk

[Taskmage]

Ok, I've taken your suggestions and edited the thread title and OP. I apologize for having offended you. Assuming there is more to say on this subject, I hope we can move forward on a better note.

[Icemage]

^ I don't think anyone here is slagging off Paladin players (well, aside from the occasional lazy slobs who sit there and don't do anything except cast Flash, Cure, and Utsusemi, but you generally don't see those clowns at endgame).

The truth is, though, right now the only reason PLD is keeping its tanking role is that it's "OK" at tanking most things - the job does come with lots of HP, high DEF, and it does have decent hate tools. It's simply unfortunate that the RDM/NIN has access to two things which combined are simply better than what PLD has to work with - namely the near-invincibility of Utsusemi Ichi + Ni combined with the absurd power of loads of Fast Cast + Haste. RDM/NIN even has better equal or better enmity tools than PLD when properly geared and supported due to the way enmity works and the spells at their disposal.

In other words, the real problem isn't that PLD is bad. It's that RDM/NIN is too good.

I've been ranting about how broken Utsusemi is as a game mechanic for years and this is a shining example of why this is true.


Icemage

[Mog]

Let's see, both have lots of access to hate spells. However, I like pld due to many abilities, defense, flash to name a few.

Pld wins as far as spike hate goes. Nobody can contest that. Rdm seems to do better in terms of cumulative hate goes.

A good question would be does rdm get access to good MDB gear? A lot of the endgame baddies are more devastating magically than physically I'm not sure if rdm or pld would stand better against these TP moves with comparable MDB gear.

If MDB isn't a big deal, then of course RDM could be very comparable to pld. I know I've seen rdm's outtank plds on tiamat, kirin, JoL to name a few.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

You say all that, and yet I haven't heard anything from you that would suggest those statements are wrong. I am thinking about selling my pld gear, and you've given me no reason to reconsider even for a second.

Wait... Selling? The backbone of pld/nin gear is homam, which if you have it, you can't sell, and if you don't have it, that might be a clue about your performance problem.


Anyway, I don't think that providing your own refresh, haste, or even stoneskin is impressive in an endgame situation (especially considering the casting time of those spells and the fact that a blink tank will not want to use Composure). If your LS doesn't have other people in the tank party that can provide those buffs, they need to relearn how to build tank parties (or are critically undermanned, I guess). The ability to spam debuffs for hate is a much bigger deal, and I think that SE should probably reexamine the hate caused by debuffs (since they obviously aren't willing to un-godmode Utsusemi).

But then, depending on the fight, hate generation itself may be a group responsibility - get a SAM/THF in your party and all of a sudden you have another big enmity spike every minute. (Or BLU/THF, providing hate support and diamondhide from the same party member. And possibly stuns, depending on the fight. An intelligent, well played BLU can be very valuable - it's a shame so many are spam-DD-spells monkeys.)

Nobody tanks in a vacuum, even in a 6-man fight like First Lieutenant Assaults, even less so at alliance or bigger fights. But the one thing PLD brings to the table that most other tank setups don't is the ability to survive most attacks for a few seconds without shadows, even while silenced, stunned, petrified, or terrorized. In those types of situations there's no substitute for Defense and HP. (PLD can also avoid some of those situations altogether with Fealty.) Low defense blink tanks, no matter how much Haste and Fast Cast they have, will always be more susceptible to a special that doesn't one-shot kill you, but applies one of those status that stops you from recasting shadows... and then the next couple of hits *do* kill you before you can recover from the status. (Fulmination comes to mind, but there are many others.) PLD has a much better chance to live through that.


In a lot of ways, this whole thread reminds me of the old PLD vs. NIN wars, except that now that enmity is better understood, it turns out RDM/NIN is a better NIN than NIN is. (Although Yonin might change that analysis. I haven't seen a Yonin NIN/DRK since the update.) People tended to focus too much on the best case - if everything is going smoothly NIN or /NIN works great. But tanking isn't about the best case, it's about the line between almost dead and dead, and how to push that line a little bit further. The value of surviving (even barely) something that would have killed another tank shouldn't be underestimated.

The bottom line is, though, if a mob can't kill even the best-prepared tank once in a while, it doesn't really qualify as much of an HNM in the first place. Endgame is about teamwork, and tank pissing contests shouldn't be allowed to obscure that point.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Mog

A good question would be does rdm get access to good MDB gear?

No. Trust me, I checked. The most we have is lolDalmatica.

We do get native MDB Traits, tho.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Taskmage

I guess as Wishmaster3k was telling me earlier, it's a matter of style. I enjoy tanking much more on rdm than on pld, and I'm much better at it. That's really what it comes down to.

Wish is right. You find a job that you excel at and enjoy and no matter what thats the job for you. Rdm just happens to be so damn versatile which allows you to do the things you do. I leveled rdm on every race just to see the differences and which one I'd enjoy playing more. For me, Elvaan by far won that competition. It's just a personal preference, like your's is to play a tanking rdm over pld. Sell you pld gear and buy stuff for your rdm and go enjoy yourself!

[Raydeus]

Edit > I probably missed it in a previous post, but what food were you using?

Originally Posted by Taskmage

Ahhm, the sets for two main hate spells were linked in my second post. For shield bash and sentinel I use IR sallet and warwolf belt rather than turban and swift. I don't have any enmity boots yet. For Cure III I swap in gigant mantle, bomb queen ring and intruder earring for +195 max hp; that's on both jobs. Rdm uses the same gear for all hate spells, and doesn't do anything special between hate actions since there isn't much time between hate actions. On pld between flashes I use suppa, brutal, 2x woodsmans, c.chain and my haste gear. Don't usually swap hauby but I guess I should.

I'm very inclined to blame the DD aproach for the subpar performance... But I don't think starting yet another Turtle vs DD playstyle debate would help this thread in any way so I better stop here.

[Lmnop]

What DD? He's using a paddle, ffs! All that stuff in between is just Atonement grabber. And Atonement will do more for his hate than he'll lose from the slightly increased damage he's not actually taking 'cuz he's in haste gear.

Something I've noticed about your enmity comparisons on page 1: these seem to assume no outside buffs? You're probably running with Haste + double marches. I don't know what RDM fast cast amounts to and I'm too lazy to look it up, but I bet you're well over the 50% cap. Meanwhile, you didn't take into account that your PLD should have those buffs and is more likely casting Flash every 25ish seconds. What I'm getting at is: outside haste buffs are affecting your 2 jobs differently. Does this affect your TE comparisons? And if this doesn't cap your PLD recasts, perhaps you should look into doing so? It will almost assuredly affect your enmity more than some measly +enmity slots.

But i'm too lazy to do the math, so I'm just gonna throw this out to you.

Either way, I believe you're likely right. PLD has a safety net, but with some extra practice, a RDM is probably better at just about everything. Ahh I'd love an utsusemi nerf/ninja main survival trick +1/seigan boost all in the same patch.


Where's the Genbu's Shield?

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Either way, I believe you're likely right. PLD has a safety net, but with some extra practice, a RDM is probably better at just about everything. Ahh I'd love an utsusemi nerf/ninja main survival trick +1/seigan boost all in the same patch.

I've always felt that Utsusemi should be nerfed to be not-so-infallible, and that ninjas should definitely get Utsusemi: San at some level > 37. That would fix the problems of RDMs blinktanking better than main job ninjas, better cement ninjas as a viable tanking job, and really put some perspective on the usefulness of Paladins all at the same time.

With FFXIV on the horizon though, the chances of any of this happening is just about zero at this point...


Icemage