[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Also, I thought Counter is tied to evasion, so didn't give it much thought for PLD use.

How did this slip through Armando's scrutiny?

Counter is a base %, and every time it should activate, you still have to make an accuracy check. So it has nothing to do with your evasion. You just need good accuracy to optimize your Counter rate.

[Armando]

Well, in a sense, Counter is tied to Evasion; an attack needs to get past Evasion, Parry, and Utsusemi in order to be considered for a Counter check. But we all know PLDs lose the ability to dodge anything higher than T somewhere along the mid levels. And even if we could dodge, that's not hurting Counter's efficiency in the least. I mean, if you're going to analyze how much Counter is helping, you gotta look at how many hits you would've taken with or without it; if you counter 2.5% of the hits that would've landed, it's still going to be 2.5% of the hits that would've landed regardless of whether you dodge 20, 30, or 40% of the mob's attacks.

Whether it checks before or after shielding, I don't know, but no matter how you slice it, it's a good thing to have.

Also anything that helps me avoid damage while I have no shield (using Staff) is a very good thing.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Counter is a base %, and every time it should activate, you still have to make an accuracy check. So it has nothing to do with your evasion. You just need good accuracy to optimize your Counter rate.

Technically speaking, the mob still has to hit you for you to be able to Counter it. So, in a way, Evasion hinders Counter rate. But Armando's right in saying that, 3% of all attacks that would've hit you anyway are still going to be Countered.

Not that is necessarily a bad thing and all, but if you evade like the brick wall you are, chances are that Counter will see some use.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Technically speaking, the mob still has to hit you for you to be able to Counter it.

You don't get hit when you counter, that's why I thought you must first evade then get a chance to counter. Retaliation is the one which a player has to be hit in order to hit back.

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Counter is a base %, and every time it should activate, you still have to make an accuracy check. So it has nothing to do with your evasion.

Is there testing to support the counter rate as an invariant to the evasion of the player? I would be interested in reading that. (I'm aware of the tie to accuracy, but thought evasion is a necessary but insufficient condition to trigger counter.)

[Armando]

You can't Counter with Utsusemi:Ichi up; therefore, Utsusemi: Ichi is checked before Counter. You can evade with Utsusemi: Ichi up, so Evasion is checked before Utsusemi: Ichi. So, Evasion must be checked before Counter.

EDIT: In addition to the above, in my old Counter Data test thread I got 9.5% Counter rate with maxed Accuracy when ignoring the mob's attacks. On page 3, Icemage repeats the test and gets roughly 10% Counter rate as well. However, I was fighting a borderline EP mob which had roughly 50% hit rate. Icemage's mob had the minimum 20% hit rate. Yet we both got the same 10% number of counters if you ignore the misses.

[Yellow Mage]

So, I suppose that means the only significance of not taking damage from a counterattack is that spells won't get interrupted when it happens. ^^

[Armando]

Well, if you're fighting shit with Utsusemi, usually it hits really hard, so I think not taking damage from a hit is pretty significant in itself.

EDIT: Then again, you probably can't Counter while casting. But this game is pretty stupid in a lot of ways, so I could be wrong.

[Yellow Mage]

Hey, Subtle Blow affects nukes, so why not?

Note to self: inform the WHMs . . .







. . . Also, I just had a vaguely disturbing thought:

Originally Posted by playonline.com

Changing Jobs:

You can change your job any time, and eventually gain the ability to select a support job. With a support job, you can effectively "hold two jobs at once." Want to be a warrior who can cast white magic? How about a monk with black magic? With support jobs, the combinations are endless!

What if they were serious?! o_O

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Quote:
Originally Posted by playonline.com
Changing Jobs:

You can change your job any time, and eventually gain the ability to select a support job. With a support job, you can effectively "hold two jobs at once." Want to be a warrior who can cast white magic? How about a monk with black magic? With support jobs, the combinations are endless!

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Quote: What if they were serious?! o_O

They were serious. Haven't you seen GenomeFFXI's livejournal post on the usefulness of MNK/SCH.

Originally Posted by GenomeFFXI

MNK/SCH is now AWESOME and fun in my opinion ...

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Originally Posted by Ryoii/Nonomii

They were serious. Haven't you seen GenomeFFXI's livejournal post on the usefulness of MNK/SCH.

Wow, that part about the drain claws going from 5hp drained to 40hp drained w/Dark Arts was like, epic. It's no wonder though, since Arts give you high ranking skill. I thought it was funny that my BLM/SCH was sleeping mobs with such great ease instead of having to wrack up a bunch of enfeeble skill to do it.

Anyway, the gist of this thread seems to be that the fast cast option on the gear is probably your best bet. Then after that, shield skill. What else is considered pertinent? (I seriously don't like the idea of the +4 counter. ... I mean, really?)