[Armando]

For those of you who haven't checked Kanican's journal in a while, the enmity gain/loss formulas for damage dealt, damage taken, and HP Cured have been up for a while. I only noticed today. Given all the DD PLD preaching I've done around here, I figured I should post these numbers here for reference. Refer to the links for the actual equations.

The numbers confirm what I've said before: the enmity lost from damage taken is far less than the enmity gained from doing damage to the mob. Take for example a Lv.60 PLD fighting a Lv.68 mob (lowest level of IT at that level range.) Let's say the PLD has 1000 HP. The PLD gains 1.667 CE+5.000 VE for each point of damage (6.666 TE/damage in total) but he'll only lose 1.8 CE for every point of damage the mob does to him. The PLD can hit the mob for only 30 damage and make 200 TE, while the mob can hit the PLD for 70 and the PLD will only lose 126 CE. Even if there was an even trade-off, and a PLD takes 25% more damage in exchange for doing 25% more to the mob, the PLD will still increase his hate generation because damage dealt is worth more point for point than damage taken. In practice the trade-off isn't even and you end up boosting your damage output more than you drop your damage mitigation anyways (take into consideration that boosting your hit rate by 25% doesn't just make you land 25% more normal and WS swings, you also WS that much more often.)

Also worth pointing out is how little damage it takes to create as much hate as Provoke: against a Lv.68 target, it only takes 270 damage. Note that Shield Bash only generates 900 VE, Rampart will generate a max of 300x600 and Sentinel generates 1800 on activation. A good WS is essentially an extra hate tool, and the more it's available (and the more damage you can do with it,) the better.

Also, the TE generated from doing X damage to the mob is greater than that gained from Curing X amount of damage. Continuing the previous example, a Lv.60 PLD gains 6.666 TE for each point of damage done to the mob, but gains 6.09 for each point of HP cured. Not just that, the ratio of CE:VE for doing damage is 1:3, but it's 1:6 for Curing. The last time we had a Turtle PLD vs DD PLD debate, Celeal brought up that his DD PLDs couldn't hold hate; I disagreed, stating that a DD PLD most definitely holds hate better. At the time I could only tell anecdotes. These numbers back up my claim more tangibly; for every point of damage a DD PLD does more than a turtle PLD, the turtle PLD has to heal himself that much to keep up (and even then, he'll end up with a worse CE:VE ratio, and less MP.)

[WovenDarkness]

I've been meaning to follow up on that and but life got it the way and I forgot about it. Thanks for bringing it back to the front of my memory. It's gonna be a good read when I have a couple of spare moments tonight.

[LilithAngel]

Yeah, I've always been wondering about this part of the Enmity testing. It confirms what I noticed about holding hate better coming up through the levels on my DD PLD setup than on my Turtle setup (and other PLDs in my level ranges). Being capable of having a steady flow of damage output always was a solid hate tool, and it did infuriate me when I was told by some parties that had no clue what was going on to stop trying to DD and tank, when it *was* my DDing that was helping me tank. Fortunately those kind of parties were few and far in between; the rest of them pretty much told me they've never seen such a good tank before I came along.

A lot of it is research and practice, though. Playing the game as long as I have also lets you see plenty of tanks in action; people would be surprised what you can learn if you just sit there for a second and pay attention to what everyone else is doing. Not like I was doing much else except waiting to pop my next Penta Thrust/Jump/Meditate/Rinse/Repeat all those years.

[Celeal]

*Long Post*

Yes, I agree that damage output is the way to go.

After tweaking and tweaking my play-style, gear, merit, try this and try that... A solid Weapon Skill damage to the mob is my main tool of hate control now, for *holding-hate* in merit parties for my PLD, NIN and WAR.

However, I am a bit discouraged because nowadays, I don't even have much chance to merit as PLD (and I know it can be done great: I had done that myself and seen other DD PLD performed successfully) ---- either others don't invite PLD, or refuse to join with PLD... or the party setup/camp does not work well.

But since I have the choice of 75 PLD, 75 NIN, 75 WAR for merit, and for my own preference (just my opinion, not fact), the NIN/WAR's 4 shadows for Utseumi: Ni make a lot difference compare's to PLD/NIN's 3 shadows:

--- As NIN/WAR, useful tools from NIN + /WAR combined, which the tactic is very clear and straight forward for exp parties.

--- Compare with PLD/NIN 3 shadows Ni + 3 shadows Ichi, and PLD's tool: Shield or Dual Weird? Cure mix with Shadows? PLD's long timer JA without /WAR's good stuff.... and when the PLD/NIN Flash the bird and the Flash bounce back and take out a shadow.... <.<
or
DD tank as PLD/WAR, which is less contradicting, and works extremely well on those imps, birds, puks, etc .... until the camp runs out of those TP-burn friendly mobs and the party decides to chain stuff like flies, Soulfayer, Mamjoo, Dragon...

To be honest, I will stick to NIN/WAR for merit.

BTW, I have tried PLD/DNC in merit and gain a few merit points in multiple merit parties... my conclusion is PLD/DNC is inferior compare to other subjob choice in terms of hate control.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Armando

For those of you who haven't checked Kanican's journal in a while, the enmity gain/loss formulas for damage dealt, damage taken, and HP Cured have been up for a while. I only noticed today. Given all the DD PLD preaching I've done around here, I figured I should post these numbers here for reference. Refer to the links for the actual equations.

The numbers confirm what I've said before: the enmity lost from damage taken is far less than the enmity gained from doing damage to the mob. Take for example a Lv.60 PLD fighting a Lv.68 mob (lowest level of IT at that level range.) Let's say the PLD has 1000 HP. The PLD gains 1.667 CE+5.000 VE for each point of damage (6.666 TE/damage in total) but he'll only lose 1.8 CE for every point of damage the mob does to him. The PLD can hit the mob for only 30 damage and make 200 TE, while the mob can hit the PLD for 70 and the PLD will only lose 126 CE. Even if there was an even trade-off, and a PLD takes 25% more damage in exchange for doing 25% more to the mob, the PLD will still increase his hate generation because damage dealt is worth more point for point than damage taken. In practice the trade-off isn't even and you end up boosting your damage output more than you drop your damage mitigation anyways (take into consideration that boosting your hit rate by 25% doesn't just make you land 25% more normal and WS swings, you also WS that much more often.)

Also worth pointing out is how little damage it takes to create as much hate as Provoke: against a Lv.68 target, it only takes 270 damage. Note that Shield Bash only generates 900 VE, Rampart will generate a max of 300x600 and Sentinel generates 1800 on activation. A good WS is essentially an extra hate tool, and the more it's available (and the more damage you can do with it,) the better.

Also, the TE generated from doing X damage to the mob is greater than that gained from Curing X amount of damage. Continuing the previous example, a Lv.60 PLD gains 6.666 TE for each point of damage done to the mob, but gains 6.09 for each point of HP cured. Not just that, the ratio of CE:VE for doing damage is 1:3, but it's 1:6 for Curing. The last time we had a Turtle PLD vs DD PLD debate, Celeal brought up that his DD PLDs couldn't hold hate; I disagreed, stating that a DD PLD most definitely holds hate better. At the time I could only tell anecdotes. These numbers back up my claim more tangibly; for every point of damage a DD PLD does more than a turtle PLD, the turtle PLD has to heal himself that much to keep up (and even then, he'll end up with a worse CE:VE ratio, and less MP.)

Remind me why you aren't playing a tabletop RPG.

[Raydeus]

While I've always agreed that having a higher dmg output is good I would take this with a grain of salt. There are many factors that contribute to your hate generation/loss to try to simplify it with a formula or two.

Those numbers could indicate otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that I (and many other people) have seen many DDplds lose hate to healers and other melee while bleeding HP faster than you can say "lol500dmgVorpal".


Still good info to have, but it requires someone who actually knows how to use this info to make their tanking better instead of people just thinking "Yay I can DD as a PLD! \(^-^)/" So it would be wise for people to check how things are going for them so they can balance their Defense/Attack gear to get the best results.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

The way CE/VE Modifier for damage dealt curves with level makes tremendous sense. I had always wondered if Provoke scaled in the amount of enmity generated as you increased in level. Otherwise, how could Provoke keep up with the increasing damage that DDs will natural dish out as they go up in level? I guess the answer turns out to be that this Modifier acts to balance out the increasing damage.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

While I've always agreed that having a higher dmg output is good I would take this with a grain of salt. There are many factors that contribute to your hate generation/loss to try to simplify it with a formula or two.

Those numbers could indicate otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that I (and many other people) have seen many DDplds lose hate to healers and other melee while bleeding HP faster than you can say "lol500dmgVorpal".

*gasp* You mean a blood tank needs to strike a balance between defense and DD? That sounds like what any good WAR/MNK tank had to think about years ago.

[Balfree]

The Following User Says Thank You to Armando For This Useful Post: Feba (Today)

Hmm... you're weird.

(sorry for the derail)

[Feba]

Mainly I just like to see people that back up their damned arguments. Educating others is always nice too.

[Celeal]

Originally Posted by Raydeus

While I've always agreed that having a higher dmg output is good I would take this with a grain of salt. There are many factors that contribute to your hate generation/loss to try to simplify it with a formula or two.

Those numbers could indicate otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that I (and many other people) have seen many DDplds lose hate to healers and other melee while bleeding HP faster than you can say "lol500dmgVorpal".


Still good info to have, but it requires someone who actually knows how to use this info to make their tanking better instead of people just thinking "Yay I can DD as a PLD! (^-^)/" So it would be wise for people to check how things are going for them so they can balance their Defense/Attack gear to get the best results.

I also agree with you that DD-style PLD in merit party has issue too. For example, if the mob decides to spam Firesplit at the PLD/WAR's face, that is pretty much sux for the PLD/WAR, regardless what style the PLD is using.

From my observation, in a typical TP burn party, one mage (the main healer) is enough to handle the entire party. Insert a PLD in that party, is that one-mage merit party setup suitable for PLD tanking? For certain mobs, more than enough resource; for some mobs, not enough and not safe.

Some people (even myself) had suggested that PLD's MP can be used as backup healing. However, after trying it myself, those PLD's cure seems extra, because the party setup is design to have one-mage is enough for main healing. (And don't suggest the PLD + RDM to shard the healing and let the RDM melee... the players will beat up the RDM before the mobs do so... )

Another observation: PLD main tank vs all DD/NIN or have there own ways of staying alive, which method is preferred? When mixing both style together in the same party (PLD + DD/NIN), that is where the issue kicks in. The matter is worst when the party tries to burn everything that they can see, instead of stick to one type of mob with game plan that is best for that mob.

IMHO, if S-E could simply reduce the default timer of Flash, like from 45 sec to 30 sec, instead of giving those new *toys* in those updates that don't even touch the core of the issue....

[Armando]

Little time, can't make a big post. Oh man, I said something real stupid XD

Originally Posted by Myself

The last time we had a Turtle PLD vs DD PLD debate, Celeal brought up that his DD PLDs couldn't hold hate; I disagreed, stating that a DD PLD most definitely holds hate better.

That was Raydeus. I'm not sure why I thought of Celeal to be honest. Sorry >_>

Originally Posted by Feba

Remind me why you aren't playing a tabletop RPG.

No one in my direct circle of friends plays them. I've never tried one myself.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

While I've always agreed that having a higher dmg output is good I would take this with a grain of salt. There are many factors that contribute to your hate generation/loss to try to simplify it with a formula or two.

I disagree; you can take my advice or my interpretation with a grain of salt, but the numbers themselves don't lie. There are hardly any unknowns; you make CE/VE for doing actions and damage, lose CE taking damage and lose VE gradually over time. All of these factors are known, there aren't any complicating factors that could throw a wrench into a theoretical analysis of an in-game situation.

[Aksannyi]

All this stuff is fascinating to read. I don't do much tanking (obviously) but this is the kind of stuff that tanks need to look at and understand.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

I would like a bit of an edge when tanking against DRG and SAMS using spears on birds. Do you use a high damage sword and equip all accuracy gear or something?

I mean, I'd hate to lose defense and vitality just to be able to get more accuracy and damage in order to hold hate. It seems like it waters down my job. I mean, I like that I take 150 damage from Pecking Flurry at LV62 from a bird where the taru DRG takes 550 and is down below 50% hp.

I assume you'd get the bulk of your accuracy from food but you can't eat food on birds. So would I equip a spear? I'd lose my shield then.

LV62 I have like 73 VIT + 26 Defense is a little over 500 w/o jas. If I effectively attempt to increase accuarcy to hit on a 80% basis, Wouldn't I need like at the minimum 40+ acc on my equip? That may be too low though. That leaves me with wearing a Hauby, PCC, Sniper's, and LB. That's all gear I can afford as well, meaning a new player wouldn't most likely have access to all this stuff.

Granted, now 68, but been pting off birds at 62-63 pts since 62. We don't always got a BRD. I can keep hate well against everyone until they produce their 800-1k damage ws's. It's those ws's that I really only ever need to have some other kind of trick up my sleeve to get hate back. Otherwise, I keep hate no problem.

I'm assuming maybe on a high end pt where everyone is doing 800-1k consistently, you'd need to switch your gear around, but in order to hold better hate is it worth sinking the healer's MP?

Way I see it... if I have a <insert refresher here> I can hold hate just fine until someone spikes then I either got to go swallow up their character with mine and cover, or cure bomb. I can do this resonably for about 7-8 mobs, then I'm screwed on MP. Thankfully I've got about 230 MP to work with or so.

I guess I'll try to get some acc gear and equip Gluttony again and see if doing more dmg and having ws'es more readily available (sometimes, not really) will help in a birds pt situation.

[Takelli]

This thread is over a year old...

But as for plds that can keep hate off Spear Wielders against birds, they use ACc, and Atk gear. It helps them keep hate easier than "Turtle" plds.

Even as a Drk, I can pull hate off a Turtle pld, and they cant pull it back and then I die. I don't even need to WS to pull hate off a "turtle" pld.

Just mix your Def, Vit with Acc and Atk. stuff.

[Armando]

Do you use a high damage sword and equip all accuracy gear or something?

Whichever sword has the best DPS. That's definitely not Gluttony.

I mean, I'd hate to lose defense and vitality just to be able to get more accuracy and damage in order to hold hate. It seems like it waters down my job. I mean, I like that I take 150 damage from Pecking Flurry at LV62 from a bird where the taru DRG takes 550 and is down below 50% hp.

Like the WAR that opts to Shield Break instead of Sturmwind, sometimes you gotta sacrifice ego for the good of everyone.

Forget about VIT - it's a garbage stat, used only when you couldn't find anything else. Defence is important but only up to a point - try to push it more than that and you won't see much gains. You can't let an obsession for low numbers cloud your vision of how much each stat is worth. The important thing is making smart tradeoffs. If you equip two Woodsman Rings, what are you losing? 8 VIT? Compared to the 5% hit rate you just gained, that's nothing. If you equip a Haubergeon, what are you losing? 2 Defense and 4 VIT? That's also nothing compared to the Acc and Attack gains. If you equip +Attack earrings, what are you losing? Drone Earrings? Mercenary's Earring? Buckler Earring? Practically placebos. If you equip an Amemet Mantle, you lose 5 Enmity. Ok - but doing more damage means more hate too. Enmity won't kill a mob faster. You hardly lose anything from equipping Fourth Gauntlets.

That leaves me with wearing a Hauby, PCC, Sniper's, and LB. That's all gear I can afford as well, meaning a new player wouldn't most likely have access to all this stuff.

What are you using on your waist? Life Belt is practically mandatory. PCC is excessive for its price - an R.G. Collar will do just fine and it's pretty cheap. Woodsmans, Hauby, pricey? Yes. Performance costs gil. All the other DDs have to pay for it, why should PLDs be the exception?

I assume you'd get the bulk of your accuracy from food but you can't eat food on birds. So would I equip a spear? I'd lose my shield then.

PLD's Spear skill is atrocious anyways. That's not ever an option.

I'm assuming maybe on a high end pt where everyone is doing 800-1k consistently, you'd need to switch your gear around, but in order to hold better hate is it worth sinking the healer's MP?

You won't notice a change in damage taken from my gear recommendations. Obviously once you go for the Sushi the lack of Defence food will show - but while you'll be taking more damage, your hate will skyrocket, your Vorpals will actually do damage (~250-300 is a good average to shoot for), and the mob will die quicker. Unless the party was A) overhunting, B) doing Erucas, or C) lacking Refresh, I've never ever regretted eating sushi.

Way I see it... if I have a <insert refresher here> I can hold hate just fine until someone spikes then I either got to go swallow up their character with mine and cover, or cure bomb. I can do this resonably for about 7-8 mobs, then I'm screwed on MP. Thankfully I've got about 230 MP to work with or so.

With better damage (this assumes Sushi) you hardly even have to cast anything outside of Flash and a Cure III to keep hate, and if a DD yanks hate you can usually take it right back with Vorpal Blade. Just look at it this way - damage is free hate. The more of it you do, the less MP you need to invest in maintaining hate, and the higher your max hate if you invest the same MP as before. The DDs will be free to do more damage on average, with your JAs mostly freed up you can challenge them to spike their damage every minute or two.

I guess I'll try to get some acc gear and equip Gluttony again and see if doing more dmg and having ws'es more readily available (sometimes, not really) will help in a birds pt situation.

Noooo, Gluttony is mediocre at best and garbage at worst. Fuck that sword. 7 VIT can't make up for bad DPS and lack of extra stats. The good swords, more or less in order of best to worst:
1) Joyeuse
2) Company Sword (full party)
3) Espadon+1, Save the Queen, Tactician Magician's Espadon+2
4) Tactician Magician's Espadon +1
5) Some other swords not worth mentioning
6) Gluttony Sword

tl;dr: VIT sucks, there is such a thing as Defence overkill, get as much Acc and Attack as you can without sacrificing large (>4 in a single piece) chunks of Defence, eat sushi when party doesn't overhunt and you have Refresh, don't knock it 'til you've tried, Gluttony Sword sucks, and you're screwed on birds.