[Lmnop]

Come now, it wasn't as clear as you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by Murphie

but is there any merit to wearing one if you already have one, at least until Eisen/Kampf gear?

I was under the impression you were looking at that in tiers.

> Is it worthwhile at all?

>Beyond 29, even?

But that's just semantics. We're all reasonably intelligent robots, here.

Iron Mask @24 offers 11 defense. That's still significant considering you're likely tanking IT+ mandies. I'd be interested to see just how much a PLD evades at this level... if it's any bit over 5%, Emp Pin is just as wonderful as Itazura says.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

C rank evasion (according to Wiki) and, iirc, one of the lowest AGI growths in the game.

I think in the 20s, the emp pin is likely a good idea... but the stronger the mob, the more you'll want a more traditional piece. I'm not entirely sure what 13 or so defense will do for you... but it's probably better than what may amount to only 1% more attacks avoided.

Why?

Originally Posted by Armando

The formula for hit rate is:
75 + (Acc - Eva)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)

From this, it's clear that an additional +10 to the Eva term will result in 5% better actual evasion. Granted that's the player's hit rate formula, but the monster's hit rate formula should be similar.

Neither AGI nor native evasion skill should alter the effectiveness of Empress/Emperor Hairpin for damage mitigation.

[Celeal]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Why?


From this, it's clear that an additional +10 to the Eva term will result in 5% better actual evasion. Granted that's the player's hit rate formula, but the monster's hit rate formula should be similar.

Neither AGI nor native evasion skill should alter the effectiveness of Empress/Emperor Hairpin for damage mitigation.

Without the values of mob's level and mob's accuracy, I also cannot see where the 5% evasion comes from... (maybe there is 5% boost of somewhere in the equation, but not the end result of 5% evasion increase)

[Armando]

Itazura, it's not that clear at all. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it certainly isn't clear. PLDs only have C Evasion and the worst goddamned AGI score possible (G.) Moreover, I can't evade an IT mob to save my life at my level, and correct me if I'm wrong, even NINs have a hard time evading. Mobs probably get a level-based bonus to their accuracy. I mean, we already have our Attack, Defense, physical Accuracy, and Magical Accuracy nerfed, it's not too far-fetched.

A Lv.24 Mithra PLD/WAR only has 24 AGI. Slap on some Battle Gloves and assume no +Attack earrings are being worn (which they should be...) and that puts the PLD at 84 Evasion. A Lv.29 WAR mob (only level of VT at this level range, the absolute lowest level of mob that gives relatively worthwhile EXP) has 38 DEX, and let's assume their Accuracy formulas correspond to a capped Rank A weapon skill. That would put it at 107 Accuracy. By the formula for player characters, that would make the hit rate 96.5%. For every level above that, the mob's hit rate would rise VERY sharply, at least 4.5% per level, 2% for level difference and 1.5% for the extra 3 skill. (Obviously hit rates higher than 95% or even higher than 100% don't make sense from a game mechanics standpoint, but it's still a relevant number because it tells you how much Evasion you'd need to bridge the gap and have further Evasion points actually be effective.)

Note that WARs have C ranked DEX vs a MNK's (i.e. Mandragora mob's) B rank, that a Mithra PLD was chosen, and that the mob was only VT. That's as "best case scenario" as I can make it while still being reasonable, yet the mob still manages to cap its hit rate. Blind isn't accounted for because we don't know exactly how much -Accuracy it is.

It's not hard to see that it could be possible that for non-Mithras, wearing Beetle Earrings, against mobs 6-9 levels higher than the player, that 10 Evasion might not pull the mob down a full 5% hit rate if at all. And that's assuming their accuracy bonus per level isn't bigger than what the formula for PC players would give.

And if you're smart and fight Goblin Furriers (which have very weak Defense/Evasion/HP compared to WAR mobs and on top of that are prone to self-destruct, making them VERY nice EXP at that level) at 27-30 instead of doing Yhoator Mandies, well, with Accuracy Bonus II on their side you'd be thoroughly fucked in the Evasion department.

Like I said, it's not impossible that you'll get the full benefit. Perhaps Blind is strong enough to be sufficient. Maybe Blind + Sandspin is enough if not. But that's a lot of "ifs". The Defense is guaranteed to work.

Regardless, you guys are right, it IS worth pointing out, and even in the worst of scenarios wearing the pin won't break your ability to tank. I'm going to throw it in there, not gonna mark it with an asterisk, not gonna recommend getting it or say anything against it. It's a very big grey area. Believe what you want, wear whichever you prefer, not enough info and neither side can be that wrong.

[Murphie]

Armando, that's more along the lines of what I was looking for. I realize it's not really that big an issue, but I have one, saw that it wasn't mentioned, and was curious. Thanks.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ah, I see what you mean, Armando; you're assuming rank A weapon for monsters. Is there testing to indicate that's true?

* * *

I didn't record to .prs file back then, but I did run parser and manually record a lot of data in my old PLD perma--but not the exact level, monster, or gear--just an occasional "Hey guys this is how we did yesterday!" kind of things. lol. >_<

From my LS rant/blog, I was able to discover that the parser reported my Avoid% (which should be Evasion, more or less) as 24.1% on what from context sounded like Qufim Pugil. Knowing myself, I should have the Empress Hairpin equipped.

# fights: 53

_________Avoid%___DMG____HP______Cure
__________________Taken__healed__MP
Itazura__24.1%____15456__6507____1024

This is before Flash, obviously. By the way, I've never seen monsters hitting the hit rate cap on any tank, at any level.

So, I consider Rank A skill an unreasonable assumption for vast majority of the enemies at this point unless the monsters' hit rate formula is very different from the players', and see reasons for Evasion gear to be an effective (if chancy) damage mitigation for PLD or even WAR tank over time--at least, Empress Hairpin should be.

* * *

My Math

I'm just looking at the formula and compare the difference in target evasion while holding everything else constant.

HitRate = 75 + (Acc - Eva)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)

For the same monster as the attacker, Acc is a constant, so is level difference. "75" is a constant, too. Then, there are just two evasion to consider:

Eva1 := No evasion gear in head slot.
Eva2 := Empress Hairpin in head slot.

Eva1 - Eva2 = -10

HitRate1= 75 + (Acc - Eva1)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)
HitRate2= 75 + (Acc - Eva2)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)

deltaHR = HitRate2 - HitRate1
= [75 + (Acc - Eva2)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)] - [75 + (Acc - Eva1)*0.5 + (Level Difference * 2)]
= (75 - 75) + [(Acc - Eva2)*0.5 - (Acc - Eva1)*0.5] + [(Level Difference * 2) - (Level Difference * 2)]
= (Acc - Eva2)*0.5 - (Acc - Eva1)*0.5
= (Acc*0.5) - (Eva2*0.5) - (Acc*0.5) + (Eva1*0.5)
= [(Acc*0.5) - (Acc*0.5)] + [(Eva1*0.5) - (Eva2*0.5)]
= (Eva1*0.5) - (Eva2*0.5)
= (Eva1-Eva2)*0.5
= (-10)*0.5
= -5

So, the difference of 10 Evasion is 5% hit rate, provided the accuracy isn't so high that it puts the resulting hit rate at or near cap.

[Armando]

That's very interesting data, Itazura. Not much that I can argue against. For the sake of having reference, could you upload the whole parse? Anyways...

Ah, I see what you mean, Armando; you're assuming rank A weapon for monsters. Is there testing to indicate that's true?

No, just deduced it. What jobs mobs have seems to be totally irrelevant to their DMG, and most mobs are based on a WAR/WAR template either way. It'd only make sense that their base Attack and Accuracy were based off of A-ranked skills, as every single melee pure melee DD in the game has at least one.

By the way, I've never seen monsters hitting the hit rate cap on any tank, at any level.

See attached file. It's not out of the question. It's only natural that you've never seen it occur, since after Level 37, a parser does us no good for figuring out how much we're "really" evading unless you don't cast Flash at all. Now, this by no means disproves your own evidence, I'm just saying, it's a possibility at higher levels. The trend would make perfect sense when you consider how wide the gap between C and A skills will get past the 50's and even more so past the 60's. Slap on some -30 Evasion in DD gear and you wouldn't evade a frisbee if you saw it coming.

So, I consider Rank A skill an unreasonable assumption for vast majority of the enemies at this point unless the monsters' hit rate formula is very different from the players', and see reasons for Evasion gear to be an effective (if chancy) damage mitigation for PLD or even WAR tank over time--at least, Empress Hairpin should be.

I would assume it is, I only used the PC formula because you were using it for your argument. I mean, I'm sure the model is just about the same, but I'd expect some of the constants or factors to be different. They already have their own separate PDIF calculations, after all.

I'll concede that you can most probably reap the full benefits of the +10 Evasion, making it a very viable piece at that level range though. 24.1% avoided attacks is more than enough to prove me wrong even if you factor in parries.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Armando

That's very interesting data, Itazura. Not much that I can argue against. For the sake of having reference, could you upload the whole parse?

Can't. I didn't save .prs back then. (For some odd reason, the version of the parser I used would delete .prs files when I try to reload file, so I gave up on that.)

I took screenshots of the resulting parse, but not sure if I still have those, since I manually copy the information into a spreadsheet for further calculations; you'll just have trust me my evasion really was that high/low, and it was nothing unusual.

[Pteryx]

I notice that your headpiece list doesn't include Rival Ribbon (Def: 15; MP+16; Enmity+2). This is what I've settled on to wear when I reach that level. As a PLD/RDM, I may even choose it over Gallant Coronet due to the MP boost, but I plan to try both before deciding. It's not easy to get ahold of a Rival Ribbon, mind you, but for me I feel it would be completely worth it. -- Pteryx

[Armando]

Well, I consider Valkyrie's Mask to be more practical for general PLD/WAR EXP purposes (1 more Def, only 6 MP behind Rival Ribbon and +7 Attack) but thanks for pointing it out, it should at least be listed even if I don't mark it as an "important" piece.

[Pteryx]

I noticed another little hole, this time in belts. Mohbwa Sash and Qiqirn Sash (ideally the +1 versions) make great swap-in pieces for when you actually have to sit. They help you recover a bit more MP without killing your TP like a Dark Staff can. Even someone as MP-obsessed as me wouldn't recommend them full-time, though -- the slot is too useful for boosting your stabbing capability when you're standing. -- Pteryx

[Armando]

Good catch. Adding. Come to think of it I should add Dark Staff to the Sword section (hey, I'm not making a new section just for one item.)

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Armando

Breastplate and Royal Squire's Chainmail are pretty much the same thing, get whichever. Same with Mythril vs Iron Musketeer's. Parade Cuirass is a bitch to get and Jaridah is better at 55. If you have it, great, otherwise, you can skip it.

LoL, coincidentally enough I happen to have a Parade Cuirass sitting in storage, is this worth using over the white plate armor piece?

[Armando]

If that +2 Enmity will help you (and it probably will), totally.

After a while you'll get tired of seeing it though, it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of your gear lol. But the same could be said about Jaridah Peti.

[DarkEpyon]

Many thanks to you. Very nicely done. This has helped immensely in my equipment decisions all the way to 60 (just dinged it last night).