[Armando]

I finally did it. I got an EXP party with a RDM friend of mine. I arrive at the Bohyada Tree, when I realize: "Oh my God, I forgot to change sub jobs." I apologized to the party, and told them I might be able to tank anyways, and that we should pull one or two just to check. So far, so good. As the night went on, I got better and better at it; I didn't have any "permanent" hate losses, I could always get hate back quickly, and the hate was pretty solid. Even better was the damage I was taking; I blinked off quite a few hits, and my fair share of Sickle Slashes. The best part was the cost of it all: I could hold hate for as long as I wanted without losing MP. Ok, ok. Let's start with my level and setup.

I was a Level 53 PLD/RDM with Enhancing capped for Level 52, capped Sword and Shield, and +7 Enmity (Parade Cuirass + High Breath Mantle.) The other party members were a WAR/NIN, a WHM, a BLM, a RDM, and a BRD. My main hate-holding method cosisted of casting Flash whenever it's up, casting Blind often (especially early on to hold hate), and Bind every now and then when it's up. If the WAR turned it with a WS, I'd let loose my 200-300 TP Seraph Blade for 200-300 damage and turn it right back. If there was a big hate spike, I'd simply Shield Bash it. Another thing was that I asked the WHM to Flash between my Flashes. He didn't do it very often, but it was something. I'd also start the fight with a fresh Blink, and I'd recast it right after Flashes (be it from me or the WHM.)

Flash is very cost-effective, it takes no genius to figure that one out. Blind costs a mere 5 MP, and Bind costs 8. Since I had Refresh + Auto Refresh, I'd get back 4 MP every 3 seconds or so. In other words, no matter what the spell, by the time the recast was back up, I had recovered more than what the spell costs. I could spam Blind indefinetely for good hate. Of course, to be honest, TP gain was slow compared to /WAR. I'd only lose MP whenever I tossed out Cures, which wasn't very often (stray Sickle Slashes, or simply when I felt I saw yellow HP and figured I shouldn't leave my MP at full.) Even though I was doing a lot of evading/blinking, I still managed to get my last 2 shield skill points during the party. In fact, shield proc rate was as good as ever, and a lot of the hits that got through Flash and Blink ended up just being shielded.

I didn't get one-shotted a single time. In fact, I didn't die. The worst I saw was a 600 damage Sickle Slash, which left me at 200 HP. Most Sickle Slashes didn't break 300 damage. At least half the fights, I took less than 1k damage. It wasn't uncommon for the parser to show only 400-700 damage taken. The highest I ever saw was 1.8k I think, but that was a fluke. Most of the time I'd take 1.4k at most, and that was whenever I'd get unlucky with Flashes, Blinks, crits, double attacks, or Sickle Slashes. I'll post parser numbers tomorrow when I'm not lazy.

All in all, it was extremely enjoyable, I left some good impressions, I had a lot of fun, and more importantly, it was effective. The sub already amazes me even though it offers "so little" right now. I can only imagine how awesome it'll be when I get Phalanx, and then when I can cast Stoneskin for easier Blink recasts. I also plan on getting a Rapier Belt for the +5 Sword Skill. I also remember holding hate from a 700 damage Freeze, and another occasion where the WAR Provoked and Warcried and the mob didn't turn until after he hit it with his Great Axe (I got hate back quickly.)

Things to consider: I had +7 enmity. This may not work as well without it. Then again, at lower levels you won't get as many people pulling crazily high numbers. The sub is highly effective, but TP gain is slow; a lot of time is spent casting. /WAR allows me to keep up with melee TP for Skillchains, so /WAR still has its uses.Some form of Refresh aside from Auto Refresh is recommendable. Blink and Flash are not substitutes for Defense, or an excuse to not use a shield; they complement each other very nicely. Having a WHM Flash between your own Flashes will work wonders for how many hits you can evade; not only do you get twice as many Flashes, you also get twice as many chances to recast Blink. Aquaveil also helped plenty (my internet was lagging, so I couldn't always time things with 100% accuracy.) Magic Attack Bonus had a very noticeable effect on Seraph Blade. Magic Defense Bonus always comes in handy. Fast Cast really helps for casting spells in between hits.

[IfritnoItazura]

Why can't Jingy be as effective in communicating his PLD/BLM experience? >_>;

I'm leveling both RDM and PLD, so one day I may give this a try. In the mean while, my PLD35/WAR and RDM34/WHM are already a lot of fun, so I'll play them the standard by the book.

Please keep the forum updated on your PLD/RDM adventure, though; I'd love to hear more.

[Lmnop]

Rock on! Now if only you can get people to invite you like that...

And yea -- level 55 and again at 60, as you well know, the DDs suddenly get some nifty new tank-irritants tools. Luckily, you'll have more AF at your disposal. It'd be interesting to see how it holds up to Sidewinder/Rampage. In a smart party, sounds like the answer is "just fine" (also, said WSs come from jobs that typically sub in shadows. So if they just get hate for a short time, this isn't a bad thing).

[Sigmara]

Never saw a tank without provoque in exp but, I know that it can work for Kings or such.
I'm all for trying new things if you are open minded enought to go back to classics when they dont work, witch does not seem to be the case for you.

Sadly I wodner if it will be managable without a back up tank or with a BLM or at highter lvls.

Notice that at 60+ you can ask for SATA as a NIN tank.

[Armando]

I'm leveling both RDM and PLD, so one day I may give this a try. In the mean while, my PLD35/WAR and RDM34/WHM are already a lot of fun, so I'll play them the standard by the book.

Haha, that's cool. I wouldn't recommend this 'til 46+. Blink and Flash were key spells in reducing damage (Blink is 23,) and I'm constantly using MP to generate hate, so Refresh is a must. Being 46+ also means you get Sleep, Gravity, and a few other spells to fall back on when you do lose hate, and RDM learns traits very slow (still don't have Clear Mind ><.) Note that Blink is almost as good as Flash - avoids 3 hits for 20 MP! (Also note it seems to have some non-meaningless ammount of hate attributed to it - whenever I'd lose hate just as I started casting it, the mob would turn back to me when the spell was completed.)

Rock on! Now if only you can get people to invite you like that...

Funny thing is, I get as many invites on /RDM as I do on /WAR - just that noone expects me to actually show up as /RDM. But, to be honest, I plan on "forgetting to change subs" a bit more often now, since I'm convinced this is truly effective.

Never saw a tank without provoque in exp but, I know that it can work for Kings or such.
I'm all for trying new things if you are open minded enought to go back to classics when they dont work, witch does not seem to be the case for you.

Sadly I wodner if it will be managable without a back up tank or with a BLM or at highter lvls.2

Notice that at 60+ you can ask for SATA as a NIN tank.

I'm sure I can work something out. I've been in higher pressure hate situations (closing a SC with SATA on a DD at the start of fights because the DD didn't have Provoke, holding hate from MB'd Ancient Magic...) than I was last night. Personally I think if I got SATA'd on at the beginning, I'd never lose hate XD The one thing about this is that since I don't have one big hate spike I have to get a jump on hate as soon as the battle starts (I usually don't have a problem, though - Flash holds hate long enough for me to build it up with Bind/Blind spam.)

I do know when I'm beaten, though. I don't intend on dragging down a party if this isn't working out.

Anyways, the parser crashed when I was messing around with it, so I didn't get to export the things into text, only HTML. I also had a previous party (Knight Crawlers, then Helm Beetles and Rumble Crawlers in CN) and I left the parser on during all that time without clearing the data >.> Hell, I have some leftover parses from a party the day before that. So, the averages are pretty meaningless. However, I figured I may as well leave the parse from the previous party so you can all compare damage taken as /WAR and as /RDM. Just scroll down to the fights with the Bark Spiders for the /RDM info. I also made a second HTML file with just the Bark Spider fights. I mainly want you all to check out Avoid%, Take/Avoid (hits) and DMG Taken. Note that I was level 53, and Bark Spiders are 60-63. Thus, they were all IT (the lowest a mob can be to check as IT at 51-55 is 7 levels higher than you) although not overhunting. They were hitting me for about 70-100 on normal hits and about 30-40 damage on shielded hits.

Fights where I only took 300 damage means I avoided all Sickle Slashes. Fights with ~700 damage taken mean I took a Sickle Slash and some hits. Fights with ~1000 damage taken means I took a high damage Sickle Slash and some hits, a normal Sickle Slash and more hits than usual, or just two Sickle Slashes. Anything higher than that means I pretty much ate two Sickle Slashes.

I also have some parses from the day before the party. After getting my Mog Locker in Al Zahbi, me and Lionx headed out to Quicksand Caves, because we both wanted to see how feasable /RDM tanking would be. It all started when his 555 Hexa Strike didn't turn an Apkallu I accidentally attacked on the ferry to Nashmau. He did have like -14 Enmity there, though. So, for Quicksand Caves, I had him eat Meat Mithkabobs, wear my Puissance Rings, and not wear any -enmity. The mobs were mainly T to me. He also threw out some Cure IVs in some later fights. I managed to hold hate all the way unless he threw out a Hexa Strike right off the bat (then I'd have to use JAs to secure hate again) or on the second Hexa Strike; if he actually had to build TP first, then the first Hexa Strike wouldn't turn it. Most of the Hexa Strikes were doing 400-500 damage; it's all there. Also note that when I was practicing with Lionx, I refused to use TP for hate (although, if I had done that, I most likely wouldn't have had trouble on the second Hexa Strikes, since I'd be able to even the damage out with my saved up 200 damage Seraph Blades.)

Tell me what you think!

[arkaine23]

Glad to see this worked for you! Red Mage really offers some great tools for a pld tank like:

more mp
blind/bind/sleep/dispel for hate boosts (and dispel should actually land)
fast cast (lower flash recast, easier to get spells off under fire)
clear mind
phalanx/stoneskin/blink/aquaveil/blaze spikes/enspells

You mentioned slower tp gain than /war, I assume you mean the loss of double attack. You can make up some of the damage deficit with enspells and spikes at levels when they are available (too bad they don't generate hate), if mp allows for it. Seems a lot more tools become available in the low 60's for /rdm. Also, DD's start becoming significant engines of hate around there. I think this combo'd work pretty well in higher levels too, provided a thf or /thf to trick on you at the start of a fight.

I'm sure between a single stoneskin/phalanx/blink from the start of the fight, that'd you'd spare your hp better than popping defender for the whole fight. Aquaveil will save you some seconds in the fight that are a total waste due to casting interruption, and that you'll do more damage without having defender on and using berserk for WS, by using enspells or spikes or both. And if you ever get stuck without a red mage and a bard instead, you'll be able to help dispel mob buffs quickly.

Subbing red mage there are some lvl 30 latent items to look out for:

Warlock's Mantle: Enhances fast cast (good luck finding this one)
Warlock's Earring: Hmp +1 (meh, ok for resting I guess)
Rapier Belt: Sword Skill +5 (extra acc and atk on your sword ^^ )

[Karinya]

Interesting. It's good to see some players are willing to try new setups - especially when they work. And more subjob options for PLD is always good.

I wonder how much this relies on the new gear (like parade cuirass and high breath mantle) and recent improvements to PLD (auto-refresh in particular), or if it was there all along (or since Flash, at least) and just wasn't discovered. If you can use high breath mantle, unequip it and keep the effect, you might want to look into Warlock's Mantle too.

Did you use en-spells at all? I don't know how much hate you would get from the extra damage, but they're very cheap and can be cast before the fight. Blaze spikes is a possibility too; only 8 MP, although the time taken to cast it might be a bigger concern, if you found yourself needing to rest a lot. I don't know if you get hate for spikes damage.

What was your resist rate like on blind and bind? Do you seem to still get hate when resisted?

Looking forward to seeing how you do with phalanx and stoneskin (and dispel, which is also a high-hate spell). I know it's a great solo combination, but I've never tried it in a pt.


P.S. If you do have hate problems with flash, blind and bind, you also have sleep available. Sleep has even higher hate than blind and costs 19 MP - more than blind and bind, but still less than flash.

[Armando]

You mentioned slower tp gain than /war, I assume you mean the loss of double attack. You can make up some of the damage deficit with enspells and spikes at levels when they are available (too bad they don't generate hate), if mp allows for it. Seems a lot more tools become available in the low 60's for /rdm. Also, DD's start becoming significant engines of hate around there. I think this combo'd work pretty well in higher levels too, provided a thf or /thf to trick on you at the start of a fight.

It's not just the loss of Double Attack, it's also the fact that I need to be casting constantly in order to generate hate, whereas with /WAR I can get away with Provoke (instant) and Flash (less than half a second,) and a Cure every once in a while. I also get hit a LOT less, and get to shield even less so (not enough for my skill to slack, though; either way, I tend to go out and cap it solo when that happens.) I did throw in Enspells and Spikes at some points, but even that won't let me catch up to Double Attack because I spend less time fighting. I still get in enough melee swings to build up TP, though. I also saw unresisted Enspells and Blaze Spike added effects go off from time to time (mostly on Enblizzard, since spiders are weak to that, but I did see some full 8 damage Spikes (yes, my INT sucks, Elvaan PLD and I'm not swapping +INT just for Blaze Spikes ;P)) Sure is a hassle to keep them on, though XD I think I'll limit myself to recasting in between fights. If it drops mid-fight, screw it.

I'm sure between a single stoneskin/phalanx/blink from the start of the fight, that'd you'd spare your hp better than popping defender for the whole fight. Aquaveil will save you some seconds in the fight that are a total waste due to casting interruption, and that you'll do more damage without having defender on and using berserk for WS, by using enspells or spikes or both. And if you ever get stuck without a red mage and a bard instead, you'll be able to help dispel mob buffs quickly.

Blink was a godsend. I definetely take a lot less damage this way, especially with a WHM Flashing as well. Being able to get away with only taking 300-400 damage from an IT mob is well worth it. I can't wait to get Phalanx and Stoneskin.

Subbing red mage there are some lvl 30 latent items to look out for:

Warlock's Mantle: Enhances fast cast (good luck finding this one)
Warlock's Earring: Hmp +1 (meh, ok for resting I guess)
Rapier Belt: Sword Skill +5 (extra acc and atk on your sword ^^ )

I've been checking the AH constantly for the Rapier Belt. It'd let me learn WS one level sooner. Unfortunately, I can't switch out High Breath Mantle without losing the enchantment, and I don't do much resting in parties since I need Refresh for this to work as well as it does. I could see them being useful for solo, though, especially Warlock's Mantle.

Oh, and the extra MP is VERY noticeable. 277 max MP = <3

I wonder how much this relies on the new gear (like parade cuirass and high breath mantle) and recent improvements to PLD (auto-refresh in particular), or if it was there all along (or since Flash, at least) and just wasn't discovered. If you can use high breath mantle, unequip it and keep the effect, you might want to look into Warlock's Mantle too.

You know, I wonder myself. By the time /RDM is worth using, though, High Breath Mantle is already available, so it's kinda hard to find out without deliberately "gimping" myself. The +7 Enmity definetely seems to help, and I could probably get away with not using Parade Cuirass. Auto Refresh definetely helps a lot as well, and Shield Mastery II helps pick up the slack in TP gain.

Did you use en-spells at all? I don't know how much hate you would get from the extra damage, but they're very cheap and can be cast before the fight. Blaze spikes is a possibility too; only 8 MP, although the time taken to cast it might be a bigger concern, if you found yourself needing to rest a lot. I don't know if you get hate for spikes damage.

I was using my /WAR macro set, so I didn't have any of the /RDM spells macroed. I mainly tossed them on between chains or when the WAR was having troubles finding more spiders (BSTs and whatnot.) Hard to tell how good they were because my eyes are constantly glued to my Flash/Bind/Blind recasts, but like I said earlier I did see some unresisted added effects. While I don't expect to get any hate out of them (I believe they don't add hate in the first place,) I'll try keeping them on more often. They're just such a hassle to recast 24 times per hour XD

What was your resist rate like on blind and bind? Do you seem to still get hate when resisted?

Full resists all the time, of course. I DID get Bind to stick once, I lol'd. This works because you still get a lot (not sure if full, but enough) of hate even on resists - you've probably noticed yourself when enfeebling. I did, however, tell Zaphier (my RDM friend) not to Blind them, so I don't get any "the spell had no effect" messages. I need to do an organized test, but I've heard you get much less hate if that happens. Either way, my base evasion rate is practically nonexistent, and I did avoid a lot of hits with Flash and Blink even without Blind on.

Looking forward to seeing how you do with phalanx and stoneskin (and dispel, which is also a high-hate spell). I know it's a great solo combination, but I've never tried it in a pt.


P.S. If you do have hate problems with flash, blind and bind, you also have sleep available. Sleep has even higher hate than blind and costs 19 MP - more than blind and bind, but still less than flash.

I'm DYING to get those two spells. The damage I'd take would drop off drastically, and Stoneskin would get stray hits AND help me recast. I'm also aware of Sleep, and I do use it whenever I feel I need another push. For the most part, though, I stick to Blind and Bind. They only cost 5 and 8 MP (respectively,) and Bind's recast goes down to 8 seconds with Haste and Fast Cast I. They're also 2 second casts (about 1.7-1.8 secs with Fast Cast) whereas Sleep is 2.5, and I'd like to minimize how much I tie myself up with casting. Overall, they're just more efficient choices in MP and time, but I do keep my options open. I think Gravity may have some nice hate, too, but its recast is even longer than Sleep, and costs more MP, and probably grabs less hate.

[samarium]

This is so interesting to see!

Keeping hate all the time without Provoke is a dream of pld, I'm sure - imagine a pld/blu! +50% defense on top of PLD's already insane numbers in that stat....

The Nasty IT+ McSpider uses sickle slash. Pldguy takes 15 damage. Pldguy giggles happily.



-sam

[Ouch!]

Originally Posted by Armando

I think Gravity may have some nice hate, too, but its recast is even longer than Sleep, and costs more MP, and probably grabs less hate.

Yeah, and that would have given me one less spell to cast. D=

Not much I can say about it except vouch that it did indeed work as well as Armando says. I didn't pull hate once the entire fight, so that was good, but I wasn't really putting out any big numbers 'cause we had both a BLM and WHM for which I was eternally grateful.

I don't think Armando stressed how important refresh was for this success. I've talked to him about it, and he says it's "crucial." That made me feel pretty damn useful.

I'm looking forward to Armando forgetting to change his sub so we can try this again. =3

[Mog]

Interesting.

[Icemage]

Highest hate level spells from /RDM are Bind, Sleep and Dispel.

Gravity seems to pull about as much as Blind. For 30MP, I don't think it's worth using as PLD/RDM when you have so many better choices.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

At lvl 66 PLD/RDM looks like a great option for solo skill up, only one lvl to go.

[Treth]

[quote=Armando]I'm DYING to get those two spells. The damage I'd take would drop off drastically, and Stoneskin would get stray hits AND help me recast.

sup Armando XD so u tried tanking pld/rdm w/o phalanx and stoneskin? those r the two spells that r the best for tanking that rdm has to offer. then again u wouldnt b able to use phalanx til lvl64 (i think) it makes u wonder how amazing pld would b if they got provoke. vit+dfs+enmity gear, flash, cures, phalanx, blink, stoneskin = invinsible useless??

if a pld can hold hate as /rdm, there is no reason for it not to b a usual subjob. id luv to try this out

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Armando

Haha, that's cool. I wouldn't recommend this 'til 46+. Blink and Flash were key spells in reducing damage (Blink is 23,) and I'm constantly using MP to generate hate, so Refresh is a must. Being 46+ also means you get Sleep, Gravity, and a few other spells to fall back on when you do lose hate, and RDM learns traits very slow (still don't have Clear Mind ><.) Note that Blink is almost as good as Flash - avoids 3 hits for 20 MP! (Also note it seems to have some non-meaningless ammount of hate attributed to it - whenever I'd lose hate just as I started casting it, the mob would turn back to me when the spell was completed.)

Hmm. I thought Blink is randomly absorbing two hits? Anyway, with amount of enmity+ gear you likely have, you can probably sneeze and add non-trivial amount of enmity. ^_^

I mentioned Jingy (PLD/BLM) before; he said he liked using Dorado Sushi for added enmity. Makes sense, I think; as RDM, I would spam enfeebs when they don't stick, and I can only recall monster coming over to wack me for that once or twice. Usually, my bane is Curing NIN's when they can't get Utsusemi back up.