[Dryhus]

Additional effects, such as those from en-spells, do not add hate. While they might be nice for some things (en-spelling a dagger, adding damage without enmity), they don't contribute to hate. Damage from spikes does add hate, so that may be something to look into, depending on how much damage they do. If it's a fast-attacking mob like a mandragora, it may add up.

Once you start partying with more Refresh classes (41+ RDM, 55+ BRD, 40+ COR) and start having more MP to play around with (10+ MP/tick from all 3), full-time Protect/Blink/Stoneskin/Phalanx can have a HUGE impact on damage reduction. If you can stack Enmity+ gear/food, it could work very well.

[Armando]

Hehe, thanks, everyone. I really appreciate it ^^ I have plenty more videos of the same party, but it's the same ol' thing. I'm thinking of posting one more, one where the BLU and THF successfully do the skillchain (it's only fair, right? I'm making them look bad XD)

Additional effects, such as those from en-spells, do not add hate. While they might be nice for some things (en-spelling a dagger, adding damage without enmity), they don't contribute to hate. Damage from spikes does add hate, so that may be something to look into, depending on how much damage they do. If it's a fast-attacking mob like a mandragora, it may add up.

I'm well aware that enspells don't add hate, but are you sure about the Spikes? I was under the impression they fall under the same category. Also, like I said earlier, I usually do use my buffs, as MP is never a constraint in parties where I use /RDM. That was a fast-moving melee-burn-ish party, so most of the time I hardly even had time for Blink.

[lionx]

3. Special Notes
Here are a few nice things you should know as a RDM, regardless of if you ever plan on tanking. And a few things I've learned, among other comments.
- Enspells do not contribute to hate.
- Spikes spells do not contribute to hate.

I remember reading a RDM tanking and spikes not giving hate....anyway my source was:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red...hlight=Tanking

So no spikes do not add hate. Only the casting of it does, but spikes themselves...no that is incorrect.

[Hantz]

Let me first say, I don't play PLD. Still, this is really interesting, just for the sake of finding out if PLD can get away with subbing anything besides WAR.

This successful run as a PLD/RDM has brought a question to my mind, although I may be way off base. With all the different ways to configure BLU and its seemingly infinite flexibility, would any of you see that as a viable sub for PLD? I'm not sure what kind of hate a /BLU can grab that could warrant giving up Provoke, but it seems like it could work as well as /RDM at least.

Thoughts?

[Armando]

Haha, sorry the thread has sort of died for now, I've been very busy in real life, and I'm levelling RDM more so it's not gimp, plus I still need to get those Gallant Breeches. Regarding BLU: PLD/BLU COULD work but only if it has something it can spam for relatively high hate. I haven't touched the BLU job at all yet, so I wouldn't know. It'd probably be pretty damned hard to pull off before Flash, though, unless there's a BLU spell that gets a LOT of hate just from using it, and has a low recast to boot. It'd be pretty cool to be able to tank with Cocoon early on, although I think once /RDM gets Phalanx and Stoneskin, those two spells on top of Blink would reduce damage better. Although, /BLU would enable you to take less damage than /WAR while doing more damage and getting better TP.

[Tirocupidus]

In my parties through Qufim/Yuhtunga, the BLUs never fail to steal aggro multiple times per battle (quite annoying when I'm a thief who just used SA ). So maybe there is hope for that.

[JP_Ikari]

/BLU may work due to it having spells like Headbutt and so forth that has short recast time (if there's any at all). Burst Afinity is level 25?, and if it is, that makes you even more proficient in keeping hate for yourself (being able to Burst at some point in time at least). If the Ability Enrage is lessened to say 1min (from what that note said it's a 3min recast), and is given to the PLD job, the biggest sub every PLD would go for is (i'm betting) /NIN. Better for PLD's to Kite with, Wyrm tanking would be a breeze seeing there's no need for AA anymore. Just overall better. RDM is sick cause of Stoneskin and Phalanx (my friend's RDM said Stonega IV did 0 DMG to him with Stoneskin + Phalanx), and that's cool to see someone trying to use and experiment with it.

If you're party is able to work with you, I don't think any PLD can't work with what Subjob they have (even though some may sound rediculous). Hate Issues pre-55 (before Rampages and the like) and pre-65 (Lvl 3 Skillchain Insanity) and pre-70+ (Ga III's Galore and 1k WSs) are all too situational. Ask any PLD that wore AF at 70-72 before Adaman got unlocked and in Sky dealing with Ga III's were a little tough. So while right now is cool, I want someone that's at 58, 66, and 72 to test this subjob out. I'm curious as well.

JP

[Murda]

lol good shit man i need to level whm rdm and blu for PLD subs

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by JP_Ikari

/BLU may work due to it having spells like Headbutt and so forth that has short recast time (if there's any at all). Burst Afinity is level 25?, and if it is, that makes you even more proficient in keeping hate for yourself (being able to Burst at some point in time at least). If the Ability Enrage is lessened to say 1min (from what that note said it's a 3min recast), and is given to the PLD job, the biggest sub every PLD would go for is (i'm betting) /NIN. Better for PLD's to Kite with, Wyrm tanking would be a breeze seeing there's no need for AA anymore. Just overall better. RDM is sick cause of Stoneskin and Phalanx (my friend's RDM said Stonega IV did 0 DMG to him with Stoneskin + Phalanx), and that's cool to see someone trying to use and experiment with it.

PLD/NIN works pretty well at end-game battles if you have some THF or /THF to drop additional enmity onto the Paladin. My LS has been using this combination quite successfully in a number of battles. It definitely works if you know how to use it correctly (and yes, it absolutely owns on Wyrms).

PLD/BLU has a few nice tools, notably Healing Breeze and Coccoon, so it too could offer some interesting dynamics at end-game. I don't see it being particularly useful in XP parties, though, unless Headbutt is a lot more accurate than I think it is when subbed.

As far as Stonega IV, I'm sure he's talking about the (very) weak Stonega IV used by Lumberjack or Waraxe Beak. I've taken 0 from both of those with Stoneskin up as a WHM. Neither one of them can land Stonega IV for more than a couple hundred points of damage to a decked out level 75 with Barstone(ra) up. On the other hand, I'm very sure you can't reduce Kirin's Stonega IV to 0 damage unless it manages to hit like 40 people with you (which presents a problem of a different sort for you. )


Icemage

[Lmnop]

pretty sure headbutt would connect, since its acc is tied to weapon acc (thus, a Drk/blu could even spam headbutt and actually hit) however -- and note that I personally haven't even unlocked BLU yet -- I think the effect is tied to Blue Magic Skill. And thus, it'd connect but it wouldn't stun... or would it just stun for a -very- short time? (like nin/drk stunning).

Bah, I don't think pld/blu was ever meant to be but only time will tell.

[arkaine23]

FC1 = 5% recast, 10% cast
FC2 = 2.5% recast, 5% cast
Haste = 15% recast

PLD actually has the enhancing magic skill to make effective use of Enspells/Spikes/Phalanx/Stoneskin. Blink is pretty nice too for that matter. Enfeebles have short recast and when backed with your +enmity seem like a great tool for hate.... Getting an aquaveil on whenever you can will also help reduce those times you try to cast and are interrupted i.e. wasted time during the fight.

I'd use sleep/bind/dispel for hate, so that your party's real enfeebler can get his more potent enfeebles on the mob. Once he's cast Blind though, then its fine for you to spam it also. Mobs also hate being silenced. I'd use that one too if they are non-casters.


/rdm is giving you both Magic Attack Bonus, to help some of your WS, and Magic Defense Bonus to take less damage from magical attacks, and a tiny bit of Clear Mind for faster resting MP recovery.


Seems it'd be better at lvl 68+ when /RDM has most of its self-buffing tools, assuming you can hold hate against the DD's at that level. Spam Enhancing spells outside your MH to keep it capped to see the most benefit from your buffs.

[Armando]

Bah, I don't think pld/blu was ever meant to be but only time will tell.

Personally, I don't think so either. I doubt it has the hate tools, and at the higher levels I'd rather have Phalanx, Blink, and Stoneskin, to be honest

I'd use sleep/bind/dispel for hate, so that your party's real enfeebler can get his more potent enfeebles on the mob. Once he's cast Blind though, then its fine for you to spam it also. Mobs also hate being silenced. I'd use that one too if they are non-casters.

I don't have to wait for the enfeebler to land Blind, because the probabilities of mine landing are too small to matter.

Small update. I've had two parties since the last update, but both were sort of short-lived. The first had members from 58-60, the leader told me they had a Refresher but as I got to camp the refresher backed out. Had only 2 MP/tick to work with (Auto Refresh + Sanction Refresh, which was kicking in at about 80% MP). If I played conservatively, I wouldn't run out of MP too fast, but it was still going down too fast for my tastes and I had to try to squeeze in ticks of rest whenever possible, which as you can imagine was very hard. It wasn't long before they complained about low EXP per kill though, and decided to move to Kuftal Tunnel (or was it Gustav?) We killed Robber Crabs and Goblins. It was god-awful. I had my suspicions, but they were confirmed in this party: DO NOT TRY PLD/RDM WITHOUT REFRESH. The battles were taking long, we had a WAR/NIN and a RNG/NIN, so there were two issues: 1) I had to keep hate high, and 2) obviously I needed to save as much MP as possible. I quickly found out it's impossible to do both. In the end I opted to keep hate high, but I'd end up using most of my MP quickly, and in some of the longer battles (no Dispel) I'd actually run out and then things got messy. While I still have to use MP as PLD/WAR, I can just Provoke and Flash and try to ride that out as much as possible, and if I run out of MP, I still have Provoke. Sure, I place a bigger MP burden on the healer, but the healer's in a much better position to recover MP than I am.

Of course, most parties will actually get someone with Refresh, but just keep in mind that if by whatever chance you don't have one, I wouldn't recommend PLD/RDM much. 2 MP/tick somewhat works, but I'd really recommend at least 3 MP/tick, but if you can get 4 or 5 MP/tick (easily achievable with Refresh + Auto Refresh + Sanction Refresh) you should have no MP issues whatsoever.

The other party had two THFs at first and a COR for Refresh. You can imagine how messy that was. I didn't have Evoker's Roll 24/7, which was a problem. We fought some Spiders, and Blink saved up a lot of damage. Afterwards one of the THFs was replaced by a DRG, but they were kinda slow to set up SATA. The party lasted like two hours, but a lot of time was wasted waiting for replacements and one death, so total fighting time was probably closer to like an hour and fifteen minutes or something.

I tried to make a new macro set for PLD/RDM but it didn't work too hot. It felt...very awkward. I think that rather than trying to macro my hate spells, I'll rearrange my spell list and place them up top for easy access. Being able to see the recast times of Flash/Bind/Sleep/Blind for myself is just too important (/recast just isn't good enough for this, at least for me.) I'll use my macros for gear swaps, JAs, WS, and self-buffs when they drop midfight (Spikes, Enspells, Barspells, etc.)

The current situation hasn't moved much, I've been pretty busy in real life. At least I'm now sitting at 6k tnl as opposed to like 14k, and still missing my Gallant Breeches, and RDM is still only 28. But, since I'll be getting Vorpal Blade next level, I've already secured +20 Accuracy in items (Rapier Belt, R.G. Collar, Jaridah Peti, R.K. Mufflers, Venerer Ring), which'll be +25 at 60 when I can replace Rapier Belt with Life Belt. I plan on BCNM'ing soon and getting a Woodsman Ring, and eventually start replacing stuff (J. Peti for Haubergeon, Venerer for second Woodsman, etc.) Also got myself a Guardian's Ring for kicks. From my in-party observations, my Shield Bash damage jumped from 17 to 28, but I think it might also generate more hate. I hope to test it soon.

Oh, yeah, like I said earlier, here's the third video from my earlier party. I owe it to them since they did get the skillchain working after a while ;P Here you can see the THF doing a 700 damage SATA Viper Bite on the colibri.

I guess that's all for now, more updates to come!

[Karinya]

Crabs with no dispel are guaranteed to be miserable. The fact that you *also* had no refresh (for a tank setup that is even more MP-heavy than PLD/WAR) just reinforces the misery, but honestly, I don't think a COR would have saved you.

However, in a strange sense, I'm glad to see this post: it shows that you can actually evaluate the successes and failures of this method and aren't some kind of cheerleader living in a dreamworld where everything works if you want it to. (Given your other posts, I didn't think that was very likely anyway, but seeing this reinforces it.)

One tip on macros you might not have tried:
/ma Flash <stnpc>
/recast Flash

For a long time, I thought it was annoying that when you can't cast a spell because of recast, it doesn't tell you how much time is left on the recast the way it does for JAs. Well, it does if you use that setup. I find it much more convenient than opening the magic list.

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Karinya

Crabs with no dispel are guaranteed to be miserable. The fact that you *also* had no refresh (for a tank setup that is even more MP-heavy than PLD/WAR) just reinforces the misery, but honestly, I don't think a COR would have saved you.

However, in a strange sense, I'm glad to see this post: it shows that you can actually evaluate the successes and failures of this method and aren't some kind of cheerleader living in a dreamworld where everything works if you want it to. (Given your other posts, I didn't think that was very likely anyway, but seeing this reinforces it.)

I agree 1 billion percent. With both of these paragraphs. Honestly though, I woulda just ditched the party or changed to /war when they decided to go to kuftal. Lacking Dispel kills more than Refresh there, and you knew heading into this thing that /rdm required constant mp upkeep. And corsair's kinda gruesome because their refresh is inconsistent and they lack any sort of dispel. And yes, even though I know you're lucid, it's nice for any skeptics to see that you know your formula has it's flaws.

Originally Posted by Karinya

One tip on macros you might not have tried:
/ma Flash <stnpc>
/recast Flash

I have /recast "Utsusemi: Ichi" in practically every one of my macros x.x (barring my equip swap macros, mainly). Even though /recast isn't exactly accurate, I usuaully just count on it being 2-3 seconds behind schedule (so if I hit it and it says 3 seconds remaining, I know I really have about a half second so I just continue to mash).

[nazlfrag]

Congratulations on making this work. I have paladin at 30 and am thinking of trying this when I get auto-refresh and can sub sleep. As Karinya said, crabs without dispel are just a pain, and a pld without refresher is a badly setup party, /rdm or not. I love the cor roll as a bonus to other refreshes, but it is too inconsistent to rely solely upon (bust!).

So keep it up, by the time stoneskin/phalanx open up you should have it perfected. It appears by losing provoke you gain many more hate tools, such that you always have something in your arsenal to throw at the mob. The +sword bonus gear and blink (and later stoneskin/phalanx) from /rdm would help make up for the lack of attack/defense bonus. So it appears you sacrifice a little attack for extra hate tools and a slightly different approach to defence.

Well done going smoothly with those food and tp stealing colibris, that would have shown up any reliance on food or attack for this to work. As such, all it appears to need is a refresher, which you should have in a pld party anyway.

Lastly, like spikes, enspells seem to generate some hate on casting (if I remember right from my valkrum/qufim days) though it seems negligible. Just thought I'd mention it.