[RuneLwellyn]

Alright, it's been a while since I've played the game, and a lot of this is purely theoretical. I only got to a level 29Warrior/Monk before I had to stop playing the game as my schedule filled up, so I don't know a lot of the small things about game specifics. However, since I've been hounding these forums without much of any posting for a year or so, I'll go ahead and throw a few ideas out into the air to get shot down or expanded on.

So I'm hearing that the new CoP is going to give Paladins Cover a lower time between use. From my knowledge, Cover works when you stand in front of whoever is currently holding hate, and you absorb the damage for them. I'll go ahead and put it forward right here that I *HATE* the fact that Paladin is worthless without /Warrior. No provoke = no fun = worthless class. It just rubs me something terrible that a class revolves around one ability, having no chance of any other sub-job possibilities. That is, unless you're going for some kind of avant-garde thing, then that's cool.

So, Cover is pretty much the closest thing to a Paladin-specific skill that re-directs damage. Does it work all the time or no? If the re-direction of damage from Cover works 100% of the time if you're standing in front of the target, it'd need a 30 second timer like Provoke, not 3 minutes. Cover I think will see a lot more use in the next expansion, but if it were an effect that you could produce near continuously, Paladins could actually try *other* sub-jobs. All it would require is paying attention to the monster's direction. How long does the Cover affect last anyways?

Also, I've been hearing a lot of Paladins on here having a problem with the innately low ATK on their job. All I can say is: them's the breaks. However, what if you just set up a macro to switch to GS for skillchaining? Would something like that work? Example:

I am fighting against Monster A, with 1H Sword + Shield combo. As soon as my TP gets to 100%, I use a macro which switches to a GS, then uses whatever weapon skill I have. Does switching weapons drop TP at all? I never bothered with it before, but if it works, a Paladin could just carry around a 2HS or whatever weapon when they want to hit that high DMG weapon skill, without sacrificing more than a hit (or two) of not having a shield on. Would this work? No? Comments appreciated.

Plus, what about +AGI to get that shield blocking/parrying/evading in more often? I know a Paladin does not have the same Evade prowess as a Ninja, but putting large nubmers into AGI might be key to negating a far larger number of attacks, rather than the usual +VIT stacking for reducing overall damage. The amount of damage you get rid of would probably be higher with an increased amount of negated attacks vs. -damage per hit on average. This kind of build might also require lots of time in other classes to raise necessary combat skills, but may or may not be viable.

Anyways, I'm proposing to reasearch all of this in my own time and post worthwhile results regardless of if it works or not, however, since I'm still rebuilding after a long downtime and as my other character got deleted after long inactivity, it may take a month or so. I'd like to get as much creative feedback as possible, and don't hold back with nasty or negative comments as all of my ideas are purely theorectical, and have not been practically tested by myself or anyone I know. That's where *YOU* come in.

Thanks for the attention.

[Radamvice]

okie well seeing how you havent played pld you have a few misunderstandings ill clear up:

1. Cover lasts for 10 seconds on its own, 20 (ive heard) with AF
(Gallant Coronet)

Providing 100% cover obviously isn't possible ><;

2. This is general, rather than paladin specific. When you change weapons, you lose all tp. This prevents gaining 100% tp with sword then changing to great sword to participate in renkei.

3. People have their own opinions on agi effecting parry/shield.
Personally i feel its obvious that +agi effects parry/shield rate through my own testing. That said...its hard to explain the priority of pld stats needed as it changes as you level, and the situation you are in. Def, vit, hp, and +enmity gear all take priority over +agi in my opinion. Take into consideration when i say i like higher agility's effects on my block parry rate, but i still feel it isnt worth sacraficing the other mentioned stats.

The short version is the effects of higher Agi are nice, but not dramatic enough, in my opinion, to change the generally accepted pld method of tanking.

Another point worth making that makes this concept difficult to pull off is IT monsters simply have quite a bit higher stats than you for the most part. I would assume off the top of my head that the difference between your agi, and monster dex, forms a modifier, positive or negative to your chance to evade, parry, and block incoming attacks.

The natural low pld agi (not to mention i do no tbelive we have A skill caps in shield and parry? Correct me here.), relative to a job like ninja with high agi, that generally equips +evasion and +agi gear (and still gets eaten by IT monsters with no blink magic) means that we just plain arent designed in a manner that would make this the easiest idea to pull off

There we go, short and sweet .... O.o

[Macht]

PLD's have an A+ in Shield and I think it's A- or B+ in parry. The PLD is very big on shields, raising AGI to a point of like +10 provided that you can keep defense and VIT good it does end up quite impressive.

So far with my testing only around 30s though a 2:1 ratio with VIT/AGI works amazingly well you'll shield/parry/evade a great deal of attacks and with the good VIT the attacks that do connect are dismal. In the entire course of 1 fight I would shield about 5 attacks, parry 8, and evade 12 (Shield was my lowest but it was getting a LOT of 0.5 skill raises almost immediatly after giving AGI a decent boost of just +5).

This worked so nicely that the party I was in was capable of taking 2 IT monsters with me taking damage equal to what their previous Tank would of been taking on just 1 IT. While fighting 1 IT often the monster would be half dead before taking out over 100 HP from me. That gave us quite a huge advantage, the adjustments of course will change at higher levels but seems to be a possible method.

[Kagi]

Originally posted by RuneLwellyn
[b]I'll go ahead and put it forward right here that I *HATE* the fact that Paladin is worthless without /Warrior. No provoke = no fun = worthless class.

Actually, I like having only 1 subjob... but that's just me

Originally posted by RuneLwellyn
Also, I've been hearing a lot of Paladins on here having a problem with the innately low ATK on their job.

I don't have a problem with my low atk rating, when I played this job I knew what I'd be getting into. If i wanted to do damage I'd play drk or something else. Also, a Joyeuse is teh hawt.

Originally posted by RuneLwellyn
Plus, what about +AGI to get that shield blocking/parrying/evading in more often? I know a Paladin does not have the same Evade prowess as a Ninja, but putting large nubmers into AGI might be key to negating a far larger number of attacks, rather than the usual +VIT stacking for reducing overall damage. The amount of damage you get rid of would probably be higher with an increased amount of negated attacks vs. -damage per hit on average. This kind of build might also require lots of time in other classes to raise necessary combat skills, but may or may not be viable.

I think most exp plds use drone earrings (agi+6).

[RuneLwellyn]

I don't have a problem with my low atk rating, when I played this job I knew what I'd be getting into. If i wanted to do damage I'd play drk or something else.

Clearly, I'm not looking for any of that, just thought I could try to brainstorm a solution.

Anyways, the 10 seconds thing really helps. Seriously re-inforces the fact that it should be lowered to maybe 2 mins, or less. I mean, with the AF, it's 20 right? Would then the Save the Queen give it another ten seconds of protection?

Thanks for the clarifications on the TP thing as well, as when I ran my warrior up to 29, I never, ever used anything besides Great Axe. Never even tried the idea. Again, thanks.

[modnar]

I would like it if PLD was able to use an other subjob other than WAR. MNK is the one I am thinking of... I see (fade into dream sequence):

PLD/MNK using cover to get damage from whomever has aggro and using (CURES, Boost, Dodge, Focus, Counter) to get more aggro to himself... and being PLD/MNK he has the highest VIT/HP in the game...

(fade back from dream)...

It would be nice.

[Rones]

Outside exp situations while questing, pld/whm is extremely fun to have along 50+. Raise, sneak, invis, flash, high def, decent atk against tw-ep, teleports at 72+. So not locked to sub war for the entire game, only while exping.

[falloutboy14]

If plds were able to find a way to hold hate, I have a feeling the leading alternative would be /nin. With utsusemi, and flash, I bet you'd be able to go half a fight without being hit.

If you were able to skillchain at the start of the fight, and have a thf or /thf, I honestly think you could hold hate or at least use cover to block hits.

[JP_Ikari]

Hehe, PLD/MNK crazy. But if there's a time when PLD's are given Provoke and Defender, and some more JA Hate gainers, what will everyone use as a sub??? I mean Part of the reason why we're keeping WAR is Provoke and the hate gainers it has (Warcry, Defender and the oh so lovely double attack). Would be also nice if we get double attack innately like WAR's, but then again, that's a trait that WARs hold above everyone else.

Ikari

P.S. Personally if we do get Provoke and more JA hate givers, I would sub MNK cause of counter and HP.

[imac2much]

My comments..

1) Cover should not be something you rely on. It's extremely useful and potent when used intelligently but it's more of a "backup" than anything else. Your job as a PLD is to make sure you have the monster on you. If cover was refreshable every 30 seconds, the job would take absolutely ZERO skill tplay. All you do is stand infront of your RNG, let him spam sidewinders and barrage all day while you just cover cover cover. Yes this would make PLD "better" but it's highly unbalanced and makes the job playable by a bot.

I think you also have a misunderstanding about our JA's. Many of them have aggro spikes that we use to make sure the mob stays focused on us and not the DDfocused jobs.

2) Pre-69 before spinning slash, even if you COULD switch out a weapon without losing TP, you won't gain anything by it. All of GS WS before spinslash suck.

Many new players have the mistaken notion that a GS wielding PLD is "suddenly" a damage dealer... no. We use defensive food, defensive equipment, and defensive job traits and abilities. Even while swinging a GS, we will be doing MUCH less damage than any other DD. Plus if you compare two PLD's on xp mobs who are using the same equipment except weapon, the 1hs one will be doing more DoT due to higher skill rating (atk and acc) and more WS's (thanks to higher acc = more TP), and all the while taking much less damage (small def boost from shield, and shield blocking).

3) The AGI debate never ends it seems. I think it's highly overrated. I still shield block and parry like crazy without drone earrings (I use bloodbead + merc, which is +hp and +vit). PLD has C skill in evasion so you're not going to be dodging xp mobs anytime soon except when you use flash. PLD's use drone earrings at low level because it is cheap and a good deal for the price. If you can afford better stuff, get the Merc Earring. Pigeon and Bloodbead help spirits within damage and lets the WHM have some breathing room before throwing a cure V your way.

Yes shield blocking and parrying helps a lot and cuts down on damage, but the 6 agi from 2 drones makes little difference. maybe it's because my shield and pary are semi-near-capped (about a 10 level difference) so I block and parry the same amount with or without 2 drones. The 2 VIT may not seem like much but it helps out regardless. I noticed a *HUGE* damage reduction when I hit lvl 73 and switched to full adaman + koenig shield + rosenbogen (didn't want to replace phantom talthum til I could get the MP bonus from adaman). I'm talking monsters hitting me for 65-80 instead of 80-100.

You can do research and stuff, but you might want to check out the PLD guide I wrote over half a year ago (it's a sticky on this forum). It's kind of out of date, but most of it still applies. You should be able to better understand what a PLD's role is.

About the subjob issue, I don't find it much of a problem. ALL JOBS have really only 1-3 subjob choices at high level. Most of them only 1 or 2. I don't see how that's much different than just having 1 good subjob choice.

Outside of XP PT's you can go wild. I have THF, RNG, BLM, WAR, NIN, RDM leveled as subjobs, just for fun. THF for flee, TH and Sneak attack, RNG has widescan, barrage, accuracy bonuses, BLM has warp and more MP for powerleveling, WAR has double attack and berserk and other goodies, NIN has utsusemi and dual wield... you can also do WHM for regen, curaga, sneak, invis; SAM for meditate and faster TP gain, etc. There's a ton of choices and many of them have very practical uses, be it gilfarming, helping people, doing stuff other than tanking at NMs and HNMs...

I don't see what the problem is. Not all of the game is about XP. It's more fun to do stuff with other people outside of XP'ingfor the majority of the game, and you can use a plethora of different subjobs there. What's the big deal?

[Brennon]

edit: sorry, mis read a post.