Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TheBruce]

In Hnm encounters it looks like Pal/Nin is the way to go. Especially when said monsters don't even freakin dispel.

So, I.E. your main tank never gets damaged. Its incredibly stupid imho and one of the worst tactics/gameplay features I've ever heard about for high end content in any MMO.

[LordBiGGs]

i would like to respond to something posted earlier about provoke being worth only 20% or so of your hate. if you have played pld or tanked in general you may have noticed that in many cases 20% of your hate is basically all your hate. without that 20% the monster will agro someone else. it doesn't matter how much hate you have if someone else has more.

a fine example of this was a party of mine earlier today. it was pld, whm, blm, drg, drk, rng. keeping hate off the whm, drg and actually even the blm wasn't all that difficult. however the rng and drk asked me several times, how are you holding so much hate. a few of the times the response was well...cover lol. but most of the time the answer was i'm hangin on by a thread. although i would maintain agro throughout the entire battle (excluding the times when the ranger released massive attacks and needed to be covered until i could regain hate) when the drk or rng released a weapon skill, near the end of the fight, although the monster would die, it would turn towards them. also the fights i entered where i was somewhat low on mana, it was much harder to keep hate. in many cases when i ran low on mana, i relized that in previous fights the only things keeping the monster on me must have been an extra cure II.

for anyone who wishes to test my little theory, try playing with a blm, rng or drk. have them play the way they would normally play in a party while you maintain hate. then have them do a little extra than normal and act as if they can blow everything they have on this fight. see how hard it is to maintain hate when they do a little extra. you'll realize that when pld's are tanking, ths monster is clinging to them not necessarily because it has a massive amount of hate, but simply because the pld has slightly more than everyone else. of course there are fights where we pld's can blow all our mana, provoking every 30, flashing every 45, curing every chance we get and shield bashing, but this would hurt the chaining of a regular party, since during the next fight agro would not be able to be maintained.

[Zaptruder]

Er... I'm saying that other subjobs used intelligent may possibly offset the hate loss from losing provoke.

I mean... if I can hold aggro off a ranger in a PT without a rdm, I can probably achieve a similar feat with a whm subjob in a PT with a rdm (I alternated hate abilities like bash, sentinel with rounds where I just spammed cured).

[Claritin]

If you look at all my jobs and sub jobs you can see I have been able to tinker a bit... over time I have learned what works and what doesn't work.

PLD/WAR is the only option if you want to be the main tank.. and if you are a PLD you shouldn't WANT to be anything other than main tank.... if you don't want to be the tank be a DRK.

However for solo'ing and questing you have options.

PLD/WAR sucks for solo (As far as PLD go).. it doesn't add much.

PLD/WHM : helps alot for just average killing and at 74/36 you get teleports... as Imac said at 50/25 you get raise which if you are helping lowbies works great... I am almost to that point.

PLD/RDM : I Personally think this is the ultimate solo/farming job.... No only for the extra mana... and the ENspells... Blazespikes rules also... I find when farming lowbies they frequently take more damage from my spikes than they hit me for.... fast cast makes your heals more reliable due to less interrupts also... and we all know when soloing petrify sucks and RDM is strong against that.

PLD/BLM : Yes it is good for basically 1 thing... WARP... but don't forget mana conservation... the extra MP... As far as your nukes sucking... that is only partially true.. your Divine skill will be high... so use Holy or Banish... your magic ATTK power boost from BLM should still kick in on that... not very mana efficient but better than nothing.

PLD/MNK : extra HPs and block skill and counter attack (which rocks with great sword) are all good... this is a good combo since you normally raise your WAR using MNK sub-job so it's part way there already.

PLD/THF : Just for treasure hunter and sneak attack farming.

PLD/DRK : for the ATTK bonus and slightly better mana than PLD/WAR.

But once again.. like Imac2much I stress that only PLD/WAR works in a group... You loose too much aggro without provoke.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Claritin
PLD/BLM : Yes it is good for basically 1 thing... WARP... but don't forget mana conservation... the extra MP... As far as your nukes sucking... that is only partially true.. your Divine skill will be high... so use Holy or Banish... your magic ATTK power boost from BLM should still kick in on that... not very mana efficient but better than nothing.

Ewww :p 100 MP for 190 damage... I'll pass hehe. Not mana efficient, and not better than nothing, I'd rather save the MP for heals Hehe I know you're just kidding but I had to get that out of the way...

Good post by the way =)

[daigoro]

Originally posted by Claritin
....

However for solo'ing and questing you have options.

PLD/WAR sucks for solo (As far as PLD go).. it doesn't add much.....

I disagree that PLD/WAR sucks for solo. Almost all my solo (raku+) is done using a staff..and double strike makes all the difference here. Spirit Taker = 100-500 damage and that same amount of MP back, Retribution = 400-600 damage for those times your MP is full...a great combo for PLD solo imo.

I agree with the other scenarios, just saying there is a place for /WAR also

-daigoro

[swiften]

Originally posted by Kinean
The best PLD sub is WAR IMO, but WHM could also work...


WHM

Pros: Divine Seal + Cure /aga = Massive Hate
Auto-Regen at level 50
More MP
More MND

Cons: No Provoke
Less VIT
Less HP
Less STR

When I was on Midgarshromr I was getting sick of WHM and I wanted Paladin, I wanted to be a babytank like Beowulf and Hammaski. When I realized I had to level Warrior I ended up giving up and went back to WHM.

*Here is a plus for subjobing WHM*
I know WHM will be useful to hunt for coffer chests. Sneak and Invisible!

I got burned out of Midgarshromr, and now Im a Lakshmian Paladin now. Im glad im doing PLD/WAR because I do not have to worry about leveling my subjob unlike people in other job classes.

[Cloud 03]

Wow this is one of the best threads i have ever read, people actually back up there points. Nice Job to especially Imac2much.

[Sanhime]

I think some people here are confused about what SJ to use with, but they either don't or forget to take into consideration of the situation.

Basically, to sum up what Claritin and I2mac said, it just depends on the circumstances (other than leveling).

My 2 cents. As far as leveling concern, the idea that curaga (or DS + curaga) is great for hate, while may be true, is greatly dimished at higher levels. Bear in mind, I'm only referring to leveling PTs. Any good PLD tank (say around after lv55) can 'easily' hold hate on mob against a couple of curaga shots after (provoking + sentinel + a couple of cure2's) at the start of fight ... assuming your WHM does not unload curaga at the start of fight, of course.

So while PLD/WHM using curaga to get hate fast and first is a novel idea, the "sustain" effectiveness does not compare to a good PLD/WAR player.

So in a nutshell, if you're doing anything other than leveling. Knock yourselves with whatever SJ combinations that best suit the situation. Otherwise, if you're leveling, always go with SJ WAR with your PLD.


PS: I would like to add one more the Claritin's list:

---/NIN: If you want to level weapon skill 'FAST', you can't go with SJ NIN. (^^)v

[Skyes]

PLD/WAR is standard

PLD/WHM is workable too especially after you have complete PLD AF. This is based on a real experience when I joined a levelling pt with THF, SAM, PLD, RDM, BRD, WHM of lv 68. I realised that I forgot to change my sub to WAR but decided to continue on. Occasionally, the THF SA+TA behind the SAM when we did skillchain and yes, I can gain back hate everytime but at the expense of much mp. A PLD/WHM doesnt have defender and physical defense bonus but can be compensated with blink, stoneskin and magical defense bonus.

If you have noticed, I am an elvaan with 2nd worst mp pool. How do you think a tarutaru PLD/WHM will fare? IMO, you just need +enmity equipments to control hate.

[Gattsu25]

BST : From what many BST friends tell me, Charm success rate is checked with your MAIN job level as opposed to your BST job level.

just would like to correct this:
charm success is based off your CHR
charm duraction, however, is based on your level against the mob




edit: would also like to say that PLD strict reliance on WAR to be accepted or 'useful' for xp pts is why I refuse to gain a single experience point with it...besides, i need a reaper job.

[Gattsu25]

also figured i'd comment on this disclaimer:

Next: If you don't want to play cookie cutters because you want to have fun for the game you paid for, keep in mind you are being extremely selfish. The 5 other people in your PT paid for the game as well, and when you use a really stupid subjob, you are wasting their time, money, and a valuable PT spot.

now, I can see your point. Yes, you're not the only one paying for the game...but how does not choosing a coockie-cutter job for a desire of fun make you selfish? i mean...YOUR PAYING $12+ A MONTH FOR A GAME...YOU SURE AS HELL BETTER BE HAVING FUN

chances are, you wont GET a PT with a less than ideal job combo...and yes...that also goes for when the job combo you're using *gasp* does work. Most people are more concerned with themselves and their personal gain to allow someone they see will limit them influence their leveling...and yes...in the case where the job combo they look down on *still* works, that does make them greedy selfish people.

Now, all that is void since sadly, /WAR really is the only viable choice for a xp PLD...but the disclaimer seemed to be broad, so i treated it like it was

[LordBiGGs]

i would like to say something about curaga generating massive hate....it doesnt. unless the enemy has an AoE, curage really wont heal for that much, which means it wont cause a lot of hate. in general after the dunes you dont even fight many enemies with AoE's. in the crawlers nest theres flies with an AoE, scorpions and exo's. kuftal tunnel robber crabs AoE does decent damage. these will be about the only situation where the entire party will need a curaga. the main tank should be the only one taking damage otherwise and a curaga shouldnt be needed. if the main tank cant seem to hold hate, usually its a drk, rng or drg (sometimes a good mnk or sam) who will pull the hate. meaning that 2 people will take damage.

basically curaga just cant generate much hate, even when a whm runs up and uses a curaga they almost never grab hate.

also something about drg's being linear, forget about different breath attacks. wyverns are good, but you shouldnt choose a sub based on what breath you'll use. you choose your sub on what will make you do the most damage, not your wyvern. the wyvern is just there to add some extra damage when you attack, and honestly i dont think they add much damage to a WS.

[imac2much]

Ironically, at high levels when fighting bones, the wyvern often outdamages the DRG himself.

Sad... but true.

[Armando]

Yes, you're not the only one paying for the game...but how does not choosing a coockie-cutter job for a desire of fun make you selfish? i mean...YOUR PAYING $12+ A MONTH FOR A GAME...YOU SURE AS HELL BETTER BE HAVING FUN

I'd like to say that if your choice in job-sub combination is hazardous for the party, you are being selfish by partying them. This does not mean that you can't experiment other job-sub combinations while farming, soloing, questing, doing missions, camping NMs, travelling, helping others, etc. Also, "having fun" is a very subjective concept. And finally, I'd like to point out that fighting isn't all there is. I'm extremely slow to level up because I spend most of my time doing quests and crafting, and I like it that way ^^