[Feba]

Whether you support him or not, and no matter how cynical you are, I figure we could use a single thread to keep track of whatever he does in his first few weeks in office; repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell, closing Camp Delta, and the various other things aides have hinted at.


Obama calls for halt to Gitmo prosecutions - CNN.com
Can't find any online sources, but CNN reported that Obama is drafting an executive order to close 'Guantanamo bay' within a year. They weren't clear on if they meant the entire facility, but I'd assume they're only talking about the prison.

[Wise Donkey]

Just the prison. He has already requested/ordered that the judges overseeing the prosecutions of Gitmo prisoners be put on hold for 120 days while they work out what needs to be done to shut it down, and what will be done with the prisoners. I have read that they are having a hard time finding countries that are willing to take them in.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Wise Donkey

He has already requested/ordered that the judges overseeing the prosecutions of Gitmo prisoners be put on hold for 120 days while they work out what needs to be done to shut it down, and what will be done with the prisoners.

Yes, that's in the first link.

And yeah, not a lot of countries would jump to take these people. Even if they're innocent, being stuck in a facility which is literally tortorous with a bunch of people who hate the West is not a good idea. But then, a lot of people get the impression that 'closing gitmo' = 'letting all of the prisoners go free'; which isn't true. Many of them could be put to a proper, and constitutional, trial inside the US, and be kept at US federal prisons; such as Supermax.

I've heard that Sweden and Switzerland are willing to take detainees, and it sounds like France and Germany along with other countries are willing to consider them on a case by case basis.

[Clever Ninja]

Holy shit that guy from the Colbert Report was right, Obama really did get started on Guantanamo Bay his first day o_O.

[Kitalrez]

Originally Posted by Feba

And yeah, not a lot of countries would jump to take these people. Even if they're innocent, being stuck in a facility which is literally tortorous with a bunch of people who hate the West is not a good idea. But then, a lot of people get the impression that 'closing gitmo' = 'letting all of the prisoners go free'; which isn't true. Many of them could be put to a proper, and constitutional, trial inside the US, and be kept at US federal prisons; such as Supermax.

That's a generic problem with the US prison system. We tried to set things up in a manner we were familiar and comfortable with, and we just ended up exporting the problem. Take Osama's driver, for instance. This is a guy who is not a terrorist. He's not really shot anyone, or bombed anyone, he's not high enough up to be in on the planning, etc. He may have overheard a few plans, maybe he gave an opinion or two, but this is not a particularly big fish. He's basically a glorified taxi driver. We have him in prison not because he's a clear threat to the free world, but more because he might have information we can use to find Osama. He drove the guy around for awhile, maybe he knows something of use. "Hey, we just heard that Osama was seen in town X this January. Oh, you drove him to that area a few Januaries ago? Hmm, we definitely need to get some operatives in place by next January to catch him..." We've had this guy for several years now hoping for something like this. Driving a terrorist around isn't something that should net you 6 years in prison with a possibility of more.

If you look at the US prison system, we're basically a breeding ground for gang activity. Look at Texas and California, for instance. Some of the worst gangs in the country are headquartered in our prison system. Which is why child advocates have been so vocal about not trying kids as adults no matter what they did. Seventeen year old boys are stupid, and I know because I've been one. They do stupid things. If you shoot up a liquor store though, as bad as that is, it might be the only truly bad mistake you make in your life. If I go ahead and stick you in federal prison for 5 to life, though, I'm pretty much guaranteeing you'll re-offend if I release you. I just stuck you in a situation where your only contacts are with people who know how to commit crimes. These people are quite a bit better at it than you are. You'll probably pick a few things up. Plus there's the gang angle, and a number of other things going against you. I'm not really rehabilitating you, I'm just putting you in a criminal training facility for a few years.

Same deal seems to be happening with Guantanamo. Reports seem to be that the prisoners have set up a kind of Sharia law there, some inmates have begun issuing fatwas, and the like. Instead of grouping by race or drugs, they're grouped by religion. We've set up a terrorist training facility and given people incentive to hate us. The people we release from Guantanamo were not terrorists. We released them because of that. If they turn around and become terrorists, it's less about "we were right the first time", than it is that the training has taken. We put them in a place with other Islamic radicals, and the ideology finally "took".

The solution to the problem isn't that we need to keep them there, it's that we shouldn't have put them there in the first place. If you dealt with them on a conventional basis, the guilty would've been put in a normal prison system, where they'd interact with a much wider array of criminals. Yeah, they might become criminals themselves if they weren't already, but they'd be less likely to be radical Islamic terrorists. The current system really didn't solve the problem of terrorism, it just moved the training camps from Afghanistan to Cuba.

[Feba]

yes, but think about how many people we have in out prisons for things like simple possession of marijuana. There's really nothing that can be done about the problem until people stop thinking of prisons as a way of punishing people and start thinking about rehabilitating people. Hell, look at that one warden in Arizona.

I doubt you're going to see Americans be much kinder to ay-rabs from across the world than people from their own neighborhoods.

[ShepardG]

I'm all for closing Gitmo Prison. Being in the military, and having served my entire enlistment under bush, I'm excited about our new leadership.

I won't knock bush, that's other people's jobs, he treated his troops to some pretty good pay raises, and other nice bonus/incentives. His economic practices were clearly ... crap...

I am a very optimistic person, and even after 3 tours in to iraq(twice) and afghanistan(currently) I feel like our situation is very...precarious.

They are completly different wars and thus have to be treated differently. Iraq is going to be finished in about 16 months, we'll probably sill maintain bases in their country but I could see our 151k troops drop down to around 20k in that time frame.

Afghanistan (where Obama said he want's to focus) has probably 55k troops...of which only 20k are US forces. That's going to be bumped by 20k in 09. so 75k, 40k of which is US forces.

The problem with afghansitan is military-wise, the terrain is horrible. (why the russians gave up) and as far as those other 35k troops, that becomes a problem that nobody has been able to solve for 8 years. 40 different countries, 40 different leaders, 40 different ideas/plans/bank accounts.

It is horrible trying to get anything done over here, because communications are horrible because people speak different languages and you have to clear any desicion thorugh 9 different chain of commands. and 20k more US troops may or may not help.

That's slightly off topic, but I'll bring it around with this:

I hope Obama can see through all the politics and make the right descision for america.

Personal opinion

I personally feel like we should sell all our buildings and old outdated equipment in Iraq and Afghanistan, put that money back into the ecomony, bring all the troops home, and increase boarder security 500% at all major junctions, all ports, all of canada, mexico and through international airports. And then spend 6 more years fixing our own problems (poverty,drug use,political corruption,laziness,Fuel,etc.) before we even consider sticking our noses into anyone elses business.

But I'm just a video game playing 29 year old, I don't know much about what the rest of the world is like.....

[Mezlo]

/praise our troops

[LilithAngel]

This will be an interesting time for those of us in the military. Bush basically buffed our incentives and entitlements to get us on board, which technically he didn't have to, but it was good nonetheless.

While I haven't seen what Obama plans to do with the military, that always seems to be a large question needing to be answered. Even more so now than ever.

[Malacite]

All this terrorist hunting is BS anyway. No one honestly believes that they can all be physically routed out and killed, do they?

It's clear as day Bush never saw Lawrence of Arabia, but I'm beginning to wonder just how good of a history buff Obama is...

The British and the Russians both tried to get into Waziristan and failed miserably. It's a no-man's land and the local Pashtuns are not going to betray their support Al-Qeada, ever.

Bush was a moron who played right into their hands. These people are insane, but they know damn well they can't physically destroy America, so they hit it where it hurts; the Economy. Like the sap that he is Bush charged head-long into an un-winnable fight and has nearly decimated the economy, just like Bin Laden figured he would. He must be laughing his ass off.


No, the best way to deal with this shit is to educate people and enforce better security. Believe it or not, support for these pricks is dropping rapidly even in the muslim world. They are gradually leaning towards modernity, and rejecting the extremists. Now granted it will take a long time, but ultimately it's a far better alternative than waging a futile war wasting lives and treasury.


Back on topic, did anyone see PBS last night? Obama has started an amazing new program. He's changed the white house's website and sent out letters to the 13 million people who contributed to his campaign. He is encouraging them to meet with one another and share ideas which each other and the President.

Yet another campaign promise he's come through on in a very short time.

[Mezlo]

I think you give Bin Laden too much credit... Our economy isn't struggling because of him... I could go into depth, but it would be a huge derail, so... :X

[Wise Donkey]

Originally Posted by Mezlo

I think you give Bin Laden too much credit... Our economy isn't struggling because of him... I could go into depth, but it would be a huge derail, so...

Then why even post this?

[Raydeus]

/

I'd suggest the Islas Marias here in MX, but it would be kinda redundant.



Edit >

Originally Posted by Mezlo

I think you give Bin Laden too much credit... Our economy isn't struggling because of him... I could go into depth, but it would be a huge derail, so... :X

Yeah, it was more like PTSD after that happened made the US self-destruct really.

[Feba]

ugh. no. The economic collapse is mostly due to irresponsible practices in the financial industry regarding debt and credit; largely regulators failing to do anything about a retarded scheme that basically amounted to a real estate asset circle-jerk.

The War in Afghanistan doesn't really have anything to do with it. Al-Qa'ida got us to attack and begin to tear down precious civil liberties; which is probably infinitely more valuable to them than any economic damage anyway; but the economy isn't from anything they did. The only way they might possibly be to blame is if their distraction kept people from seeing this problem.

Likewise, Iraq is only their doing so much as people were thinking "TER'IST AYRABS!", and not if it was a good decision or not. In any case, the huge deficit will cause economic problems in the future, but not the present.

[Malacite]

That and the tax breaks. Holy shit did Bush ever give out a lot of money in tax breaks...


But my point was their aim was to engage in psychological warfare and get the now Ex-President (thank goodness) to go into "panic mode" and blow all kinds of money on a fruitless war. In that respect, they did a good job. Too bad for them Obama's not fucking around and with any luck will turn this all around.