[Karinya]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

Mal, the thing that people must master is the art of listening to both sides openly and without bias.

*And then rejecting the one that is lying.* This is a very important step. One of the media's most annoying habits is refusing to point out lies even when they have the facts to prove that they are lies. They just report what each side said, don't mention reality, and that's their news story. (Olbermann is famous for being an exception to this - he calls out lies. Jon Stewart does too, but nobody takes him seriously because he's a comedian.)

Splitting the difference between a good plan and a bad plan will sometimes give you a mediocre plan and other times give you a half-assed disaster. Listen to both sides, but then don't be afraid to PICK ONE.

If you can not listen to both sides and glean the good from both then you can't make an objective opinion.

One of the possibilities you have to be open to is that there isn't any good in one side. Fox News, for example, is a propaganda organization. That's what it was designed to be and that's what it is. Their numerous inaccuracies are well documented - too numerous for it to be reasonable to believe that they are all mistakes. Their slogan is infamous precisely because their actual practices are the exact opposite.

When your choices for dinner are a restaurant and a dumpster, looking at both sides and trying to glean the good from both is not such a great idea. Really, it's ok to make judgments.

It's difficult for many because their heart has already made camp on a side. I am able to do it because I do not get deeply involved until the time comes for me to make a decision. I remember that words are just that......words. Anyone can say anything at anytime to better their outcome. Everyone does it; and even more so in the political arena. Always remember the saying "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words." Look back on their deeds and not their words. The measure of a man is in the things he has done and not in the words he can say. Just some friendly advice to go into the political arena with both eyes and ears open.

Reserve judgment until you have the facts - but only until you have the facts. Being neutral between the fire brigade and the fire is not a virtue.


I think the *biggest* challenge of the next president will be to resist the tide of media babblers claiming that the next president shouldn't investigate or prosecute the crimes of the current administration. (I say "crimes" because that's exactly what they are: acts that violate criminal laws.) Ford pardoned Nixon and look what it got us: Cheney and several other members of the current administration thought that if Nixon could get away with that, what could *they* get away with?

The answer had goddamn well better be "Nothing", or you don't even want to see what the *next* crew is going to try to pull. When John Yoo gets to Cheney's age he's going to be an outright monarchist.

Either our government is accountable to the law - or it isn't. The current president obviously isn't going to hold himself *or* his underlings accountable. If his successor doesn't either, then we know what kind of country we're living in. One where the law only applies to the powerless.

[Malacite]

It's not like I just tune out Mc Cain all the time (I do tune him out a fair bit though, largely because very few republicans I've seen in the news make good arguments. Gov. Schwartzenager thankfully is one of them, along with that guy who managed Huckabee's campaign.)

I also listen in to the BBC and Canadian stations (and I used to like Meet the Press a lot until Russert had that unfortunate heart attack ; ; ) so it's not like I I don't see other side's way of thinking. In fact that's why I pointed out this particular program to begin with, because it doesn't promote either candidate (at least not directly) just what will need to get done irregardless of who wins.

The idea was to inform yourself on the issues, and then judge the candidates based on that info and their presented plans. This is why I support Obama so much, because to me he really seems to understand just how serious the power shift from Western society to Eastern will be.

I repeat; this is not a "Vote for Obama" thread (much as I'd like you all to do so ) it's a "find out just how serious this election is" thread.

[Neomage]

The thing is though, have you actually seen McCain's ads? A few weeks ago he was comparing Obama to Britney Spears. Now he's comparing Obama to Moses. So does he really think that Britney = Moses, or is he trying to make himself look like a senile old fool? I mean, I get that he probably doesn't come up with this stuff, but he has to authorize it for it to air.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Neomage

is he trying to make himself look like a senile old fool?

Pity Vote | The Daily Show | Comedy Central

[Cometgreen]

In fact that's why I pointed out this particular program to begin with, because it doesn't promote either candidate (at least not directly) just what will need to get done irregardless of who wins.

But it's still biased as all hell. I caught the last few segments of it, and although it may not have been McCain vs Obama, it was clearly looking at the issues from a singular point of view. The discussion over health care wasn't about ways to reduce the costs of health care - it was about ways to nationalize health care. Nothing about reducing regulations or lowering taxes, or looking at why health care costs have risen over the years.

The same with global warming: no skepticism of the severity (much less the existence) of the threat, nor any proposals to allow the market to create a cleaner fuel. The only solution is to get the government to confiscate more money to spend on what 535 people, who know nothing about climatology or efficient energy production, think is the best course of action.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Cometgreen

The same with global warming: no skepticism of the severity (much less the existence) of the threat,

Which is like saying "oh, this group is only concerned with how to stop rapists. What if rape isn't even that big of a deal? Much less that the person actually wanted it."

[Cometgreen]

Good point. I forgot that saying something's true makes it so.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Cometgreen

Good point. I forgot that massive amounts of evidence are rarely wrong.

Fixed. Also see Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Especially the "Statements by dissenting organizations" section.

[Susurrus]

Obama is anti-military and I am pro military. I can't vote anti-military, sorry.... (See when he thought the military's presence had nothing to do with the progress in Iraq or when he refused to visit a military hospital in Germany because he couldn't bring cameras in. Also when he ignored emails requesting him to debate vs McCain in Ft Hood.)

[Caspian]

Originally Posted by Feba

Fixed. Also see Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . Especially the "Statements by dissenting organizations" section.

I found Don't fight, adapt interesting. They're not considered an "organization", apparently, but check the list of signatories at the bottom of the page. Thats an awful lot of PhD's. A hell of a lot more than were on the IPCC.

[Feba]

More signatures to a single document don't change the overall consensus, though. Another part of that page you might find interesting is Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even then, though, that letter agrees that there is climate change, and we need to take action to prevent losses. It disagrees with lowering carbon output (which, honestly, even if it weren't causing climate change, should be done anyway for public health and preserving natural beauty; see smog over major cities for an example.), in favor of vague "planning for such changes is needed, with a focus on helping our most vulnerable citizens adapt to conditions that lie ahead. "

It also talks gravely about how CO2 limitations will 'delay progress and development' or something along those lines; while completely ignoring opportunities that new technologies and such present. New jobs, more education for people that need to fill them, and so on. New inventions brought about by such laws, and people looking to get their slice of the green pie. For example, improvements in battery technology would be needed to improve electric cars. Faster charging, longer lasting, lighter, cheaper, and so on-- and that technology is also going to work for other things; our laptops and cell phones and handheld games are going to benefit from that too. Down that way, you might want to read Great Allegheny Passage Bike Path Bringing Economic Growth : TreeHugger -- the site is obviously biased, but there's some good points there to look into.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Susurrus

Obama is anti-military and I am pro military. I can't vote anti-military, sorry....

Proof please. I've seen nothing anti-military about him, hell a while back he was pushing to get the army more funds for a new kind of ammunition.

[Vyuru]

Fox News, for example, is a propaganda organization.

Fox News is also so Pro-Democrat it isn't even funny.

Gonna wait and see closer to election time, last I checked neither candidate was knocking my socks off.

Also last I checked, no one seems to have a real clue as to how to handle some of the important issues, such as healthcare/medicine, so I'm just kinda in a "meh" stage right now. Well, it might be a bit much to say they don't have a clue, most likely they won't say because the most simple solution would piss off the docters to no end.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Fox News is also so Pro-Democrat it isn't even funny.

Can I please have some of whatever you're smoking.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Fox News is also so Pro-Democrat it isn't even funny.

You'd never know it by watching the station's programming. There's a reason Obama wants nothign to do with them. No really, have you ever sat down to watch Bill O' Reilly or Shawn Hannity? But then if it wasn't for them, who would Steven Colbert make fun of. ^^


Our healthcare system in Canada is far from perfect (it's also paid for by our relatively high taxes FYI) but I have to agree with what Michael Moore said in a Larry King interview; You have to remove the profit factor from healthcare. As long as there's a profit to be made it will be flawed. Healthcare should be a basic right for people in North America, not a business. Also, score another point for Obama on this 'cause he wants to reduce costs by 76 billion dollars by upgrading hospitals to keep records digitally and also invest in preventative care, something I've not heard any of the other candidates say save Mike Huckabee (who was also the only guy to talk about Infrastructure, another serious issue)


Honestly it's all these "Miracle Cures" and drugs that rack up medical expenses. It's always cheaper to prevent than it is to fix. Reminds me of when I saw Richard Simmons on CNN the other day. The guy is contemplating running for Congress if he has to for his cause, and I for one support him. I didn't know that schools had actually cut out P.E. and Recess! Worse yet, for the first time ever an entire generation of children has a lower life expectancy than their parents. If that doesn't tell you something is seriously wrong with America's youth, I don't know what will.