[Feba]

I saw this question brought up somewhere else, and it got some interesting responses. They both have a party buying a copy of a media, and distributing it to hundreds of thousands of people without royalties going to the artist. They both "harm" creators of content, and they both are widely used and very popular. The biggest difference is that a library only has a single copy-- however, most libraries have copiers nearby that people can use to take pages from books. There's also no way to know if someone copied content off the media outside the library.

So, other than the fact that one of them isn't getting sued, what's the difference?

[Balfree]

A great question, I guess there's no simple answer... I thought libraries had some sort of arrangement with the authors or their correspondants...

[Ellipses]

The Dewey decimal system.

[Balfree]

Isnt that just a way of classifying/categorizing the items?

[Mhurron]

The library pays more then the average person to lend you those items and you return them. When was the last time you downloaded a torrent that:

A - Paid special license costs to make the material available temporarily to people
B - Returned the downloaded material.

If you don't think there's a difference, go ahead and try mass photocopying of everything in the building.

[Callisto]

I've met hot girls at the library.

Plus Bittorrent doesn't call me 4 times a week about an overdue cookbook.

[DakAttack]

Reading is good for you.

[Akashimo]

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

[Ziero]

One of them lets people temporarily borrow something for free while the other just gives it away?

Unless you give back your movies, music and other torrented junk when you're done.

P2P file sharing is to a library as a video rental place is to you copying and printing other people's books and freely distributing them.

One lends, the other gives, I don't see how it's that hard of a concept.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

A - Paid special license costs to make the material available temporarily to people

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials. on the other hand, I have heard of libraries taking in used books. Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

Originally Posted by Mhurron

B - Returned the downloaded material.

Originally Posted by Ziero

One of them lets people temporarily borrow something for free while the other just gives it away?

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying. Whether you return the original source is irrelevant, since there's still a very real possibility (if not likelihood) that you will copy the material while it's in your possession. Addition, possession of the source does not actually change the fact that it's not contributing any money to the artist of the work.

Also, I'd say there's a pretty good likelihood that most people DO "return" things they torrent, insofar as they delete them. Hard drive space is limited, and people are unlikely to keep around movies, books, and so on that they will not use again. Mhurron, if you think there's a difference, try downloading everything on TPB. I don't think you'll have much luck getting it to fit on a hard drive.

Originally Posted by DakAttack

Reading is good for you.

There are tons of book torrents out there. I've personally seen at least three trackers devoted to nothing but textbooks. There are even more out there for rare novels and such.

[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Feba

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials

Well then, it must not happen.

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying

Fair use. Look it up. Copying one article for your personal use is fair use, the whole magazine/book, not so much.

No matter how you slice it, downloading that Anime was illegal. So is copying the whole thing verbatim from the library.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Mhurron

Well then, it must not happen.

Hence

Originally Posted by Feba

Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

I know perfectly well what fair use is. That doesn't mean that the library has any system in place to make sure you did not copy the entire work; and if they did know you had, they probably couldn't care less.

Originally Posted by Mhurron

So is copying the whole thing verbatim from the library.

Exactly. That's the point, how is it that torrents are considered bad, libraries ok, even though they're both facilitating the exact same process? I'm not bringing this up to ease my torrential guilt; I don't have any respect for traditional copyright, and especially not the people who enforce it. Even if I did I have restricted my torrenting to things I can't buy (region), things which are legal anyway, and gotten rid of almost all of my pirated goods. I just consider it very interesting, almost like the war on drugs, how some substances are considered good things, but ones which are extremely similar are shunned, prosecuted, and imprisoned.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Feba

I've never heard of libraries paying more for their materials. on the other hand, I have heard of libraries taking in used books. Either way, they're still buying copyrighted materials and giving them away, the initial cost isn't really that important since there isn't a limit on how often that's going to happen.

And that's where you're wrong. Libraries don't give anything away, they let you borrow an item with the expressed assumption that you will return it. If they lose that book they have to go buy another.

The thing is though, like I said, they not only allow but encourage copying. Whether you return the original source is irrelevant, since there's still a very real possibility (if not likelihood) that you will copy the material while it's in your possession. Addition, possession of the source does not actually change the fact that it's not contributing any money to the artist of the work.

As Mhurron pointed out, Fair Use allows the copying of some copywritten literature (not sure if it extends to other media, but I doubt it) but it does not allow you to copy entire works. Meaning copying one or two articles or pages is ok, but copying the entire book then handing it to all your friends isn't.

Also, I'd say there's a pretty good likelihood that most people DO "return" things they torrent, insofar as they delete them. Hard drive space is limited, and people are unlikely to keep around movies, books, and so on that they will not use again. Mhurron, if you think there's a difference, try downloading everything on TPB. I don't think you'll have much luck getting it to fit on a hard drive.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA No.

Download, print, delete. There, now you have a full reproduction of a book while saving the harddrive space and not "returning" anything.

I don't see where the debate lies in this subject. A Library is a place where you can temporarily borrow media where Torrents and P2P stuff copy and produce unlicensed, illegal copies of something for mass distribution.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Libraries don't give anything away,

Yes, they do. Unless you only consider them to be letting people borrow ink and paper, in which case you have no reason to be supporting copyright law anyway. They are giving away the knowledge, ideas, entertainment, and so on that the books, music, games, software, and so on that the material they lend contains.

Originally Posted by Ziero

Meaning copying one or two articles or pages is ok, but copying the entire book then handing it to all your friends isn't.

Originally Posted by Feba

I know perfectly well what fair use is. That doesn't mean that the library has any system in place to make sure you did not copy the entire work; and if they did know you had, they probably couldn't care less.

As in, what fair use is is irrelevant, the library still supports, if not encourages, piracy.

Originally Posted by Ziero

Download, print, delete. There, now you have a full reproduction of a book while saving the harddrive space and not "returning" anything.

Quite honestly, that's the stupidest point I've ever seen. You'd spend more on printer ink and paper than you would just buying more storage media. Not to mention you are actually HELPING my case, since you'd need to have someone to PUT all that paper. Either way, again, most people aren't going to spend money to store things that they're unlikely to use again; those things are far more likely to be deleted than backed up.

Originally Posted by Ziero

A Library is a place where you can temporarily borrow media where Torrents and P2P stuff copy and produce unlicensed, illegal copies of something for mass distribution.

No. A library allows you to use a piece of media for free. It's incredibly easy for you to copy it before you return it, and thus have a permanent copy. P2P allows you to use a piece of media for free. It's incredibly easy for you to not delete it, and thus have a permanent copy.

Even if it were possible, somehow, to keep people from copying library media, it is not the media itself which is valuable. It is the content inside it. The media itself (be it a plastic CD, or ink and paper) is very nearly worthless. Most people, for most media, only need to see it once or twice; be it a movie, TV show, book, or so on. If they need to see it again, all they would need to do would be to go back to the library.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Feba

The biggest difference is that a library only has a single copy-- however, most libraries have copiers nearby that people can use to take pages from books. There's also no way to know if someone copied content off the media outside the library.

If they could find a way to come into your house and check to see if you were photocoping books, I'm sure they'd do it. They would love to have some way of knowing how to sue you. Personally I have a Sony Ebook for my books and yes on occasion I would actually purchase them, usually work related ones. (I got tired of so many books around the house and our local library is picky about what used books they take in.) Otherwise I know how to use BT and I do shamelessly. I have 6 hard drives and all are damn near full and I'm too busy to keep up with burning the stuff too so I just keep buying new hds! LOL