[Feba]

After seeing yet another case of police bashing in someone's door and going through their house without any real cause, and seeing Botched Paramilitary Police Raids ; I'm starting to wonder.

First of all, I want to make it clear that by lax and overzealous I'm not talking about the amount of police officers, their budget, or their equipment. You can have a lot of lazy cops, or you can have a few paramilitary cops; I'm just talking about the general attitude and policies of a given force.

Secondly, I know a lot of this is a problem with the 'war on drugs', but if you want to talk about that, please make another thread.

[Temagori]

I personally think there needs to be a healthy balance, but since that obviously will not happen I'd prefer the more serious police. It may seem extreme, but you have to look at it from this standpoint.

If your not doing anything wrong, suspicious, or stupid then you have no problems anyhow. Why not allow for a more severe standpoint in Public Discipline so that we, as a people, can actually feel safe to let our children out to play since the police's ferocity would lower the Crime Rate.

My only fear with an overwhelming presence of Police Superiority is the obvious cause and effect scenario that would most assuradly cause Riots and Revolutions.

I won't lie, while being safer for my kids to go outside I would be afraid that my child could get taken advantage of from the Police through overwhelming legal jargon. I can just see it now.

It's illegal to rape a butterfly in Central Park... Picture a kid just catching one and accidentally mangling it abit. Think an over zealous cop might arrest that child for Rape?

Extreme I know, but it just goes to show that with all the stupid laws out there still left unchanged you really can't have either too lax nor too strict of police. If police became too zealous we might start seeing more stupid laws that would make life just plain boring and uneventful.

On the other hand if you have too lax of police officers you might get mugged and the officer could reply simply that you shouldn't have had such a good looking ensemble.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Temagori

I personally think there needs to be a healthy balance, but since that obviously will not happen I'd prefer the more serious police. It may seem extreme, but you have to look at it from this standpoint.

If your not doing anything wrong, suspicious, or stupid then you have no problems anyhow. Why not allow for a more severe standpoint in Public Discipline so that we, as a people, can actually feel safe to let our children out to play since the police's ferocity would lower the Crime Rate.

Personally, I feel we already have a healthy balance of "lax" and "overzealousness" but given the choices I'd have to go with "overzealousness" as well...assuming everyone involved was competent and honest. Most of those reports were the result of lax investigations with overzealous executions, so in the end niether choice would be that great.

But in places where the laws and police force are "laxed" it's the criminals who run everything...and they end up being far worse then an overzealous cop could ever be.

[Murphie]

There really isn't an option that applies to me. "Much the same as we have now" would be what I'd choose, or something in the middle.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Murphie

"Much the same as we have now"

..which depends entirely on where you live. There are some places where the police couldn't give less of a damn, and there are some places that have paramilitary forces.

Originally Posted by Murphie

or something in the middle.

The point was, we are probably never going to find a good balance that will make most people happy, so which side would you rather deal with?

[Malevolent]

This is the police i have to live with every day. I do know for a fact they abuse every bit of power they have and no one cares. MN police thru the state pretty much shoot and ask questions later. Plus Kare 11 news likes to make these accidents look viable and right >.> If that ever happened to me I'd be cuttin thru bitches with my samurai sword...just out of fear due to the unwelcomed barging in from unknowns... I think thats a pretty human reaction >.>


Edit: Actually if there were more overzealous cops runnin around i think we'd have more unprovoked police brutality cases on the public's hands. Then that would lead to civil unrest and eventually cause a lack of trust in any uniformed officer and also a decay of the police forces and morale.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by Feba

..which depends entirely on where you live. There are some places where the police couldn't give less of a damn, and there are some places that have paramilitary forces

In the United States. I thought that was implied. Hyperbole aside, no one in the US lives in a paramilitary state. And besides a few backwaters, no one in the US lives where the police don't give a damn. They may feel that way, but they aren't right.

The point was, we are probably never going to find a good balance that will make most people happy, so which side would you rather deal with?

I disagree. I think it's entirely possible to please a majority. There are going to be people who are dissatisfied, but there's nothing you can do about that. Since I disagree with your assertion, I can't really answer the question to your satisfaction.
______________________________

Originally Posted by Malevolent

This is the police i have to live with every day. I do know for a fact they abuse every bit of power they have and no one cares. MN police thru the state pretty much shoot and ask questions later. Plus Kare 11 news likes to make these accidents look viable and right >.> If that ever happened to me I'd be cuttin thru bitches with my samurai sword...just out of fear due to the unwelcomed barging in from unknowns... I think thats a pretty human reaction >.>


Edit: Actually if there were more overzealous cops runnin around i think we'd have more unprovoked police brutality cases on the public's hands. Then that would lead to civil unrest and eventually cause a lack of trust in any uniformed officer and also a decay of the police forces and morale.

If you're talking about cutting people with your Samurai sword, you automatically don't get an opinion. Because you are a crazy person.

[Malevolent]

Originally Posted by Murphie

In the United States. I thought that was implied. Hyperbole aside, no one in the US lives in a paramilitary state. And besides a few backwaters, no one in the US lives where the police don't give a damn. They may feel that way, but they aren't right.

I disagree. I think it's entirely possible to please a majority. There are going to be people who are dissatisfied, but there's nothing you can do about that. Since I disagree with your assertion, I can't really answer the question to your satisfaction.
______________________________


If you're talking about cutting people with your Samurai sword, you automatically don't get an opinion. Because you are a crazy person.

lol, I have a right to protect my house and family from uninvited people. If anyone barges into my house at 1am no shit am i going to be a lil ballistic and alarmed. What are you going to do when you hear someone to pund down your door? Ask politley "Who's there" if you said yes then i would say you're the crazy one. While you ask politley I'm arming myself and getting ready for something bad to come thru that door untill they properly identify themselves. If they don't i hope to god that robber, police or whatever that they have a bullet proof vest on.

For christ sake they're more lax on pot busts.

There was a incident like this a few years ago where this same thing happened to a older man in his 70's. He shot and killed an officer, injured another while they barged into his house.

Startled and frightened he had a right to shoot and ask questions later. He was protecting his house. Never charged for what he did. Many neighbors said he did the right thing. I don't blame him either. Police should know by now to be a little more cautious when going off a misconstrued tip from someone who isn't law enforcement.

If you believe police have a right to just barg in on your home on a incorrect tip without further investigation then you're just a waste of space.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

lol, I have a right to protect my house and family from uninvited people. If anyone barges into my house at 1am no shit am i going to be a lil ballistic and alarmed. What are you going to do when you hear someone to pund down your door? Ask politley "Who's there" if you said yes then i would say you're the crazy one. While you ask politley I'm arming myself and getting ready for something bad to come thru that door untill they properly identify themselves. If they don't i hope to god that robber, police or whatever that they have a bullet proof vest on.

What is a bullet proof vest going to do against your Samurai sword, crazy?

There was a incident like this a few years ago where this same thing happened to a older man in his 70's. He shot and killed an officer, injured another while they barged into his house.

Startled and frightened he had a right to shoot and ask questions later. He was protecting his house. Never charged for what he did. Many neighbors said he did the right thing. I don't blame him either. Police should know by now to be a little more cautious when going off a misconstrued tip from someone who isn't law enforcement.

You definitely have the right to defend yourself and your home. That doesn't translate into a right to "shoot first and ask questions later," regardless of what you may think. Besides, you can't fire a Samurai sword. Or do you also have a longbow?

If you believe police have a right to just barg in on your home on a incorrect tip without further investigation then you're just a waste of space.

That's nice. But I don't think that, and haven't said anything of the sort. I just said you were crazy for talking about cutting people up with your Samurai sword.

I don't know where you live that you are in constant fear of the police barging into your home to kill you, but I suspect the area doesn't matter. It sounds to me like some sort of irrational mania brought on by I can't even imagine what.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

lol, I have a right to protect my house and family from uninvited people. If anyone barges into my house at 1am no shit am i going to be a lil ballistic and alarmed. What are you going to do when you hear someone to pund down your door? Ask politley "Who's there" if you said yes then i would say you're the crazy one. While you ask politley I'm arming myself and getting ready for something bad to come thru that door untill they properly identify themselves. If they don't i hope to god that robber, police or whatever that they have a bullet proof vest on.

For christ sake they're more lax on pot busts.

There was a incident like this a few years ago where this same thing happened to a older man in his 70's. He shot and killed an officer, injured another while they barged into his house.

Startled and frightened he had a right to shoot and ask questions later. He was protecting his house. Never charged for what he did. Many neighbors said he did the right thing. I don't blame him either. Police should know by now to be a little more cautious when going off a misconstrued tip from someone who isn't law enforcement.

If you believe police have a right to just barg in on your home on a incorrect tip without further investigation then you're just a waste of space.

Well that don't fly around here. You shoot someone or injure someone on your property even if they are breaking into your house and they sue you. Yes thats right...sue. A very good friend had a dog that attacked a burgler and he sued and won. Also the dog had to be put down.

Another friend had a son that had a totally clean record but made a bad choice. A friend of his came back to the neighborhood after being in a juvenile facility for stealing a car. Well, his son was told to not hang out with the kid but they had known each other since they were 2 and he decided to do it anyways. The kid eventually stole a car and took his son for a joyride. The cops pulled them over and the boy was scared s**tless. They had them with their hands on a wall spread eagle and the boy kept crying and begging to call his dad. The cop broke his leg with a nightstick because he wouldn't shut up. Nothing ever happened to the cop though they tried to pursue it. Overzealous indeed, neither option is acceptable.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

lol, I have a right to protect my house and family from uninvited people. If anyone barges into my house at 1am no shit am i going to be a lil ballistic and alarmed. What are you going to do when you hear someone to pund down your door? Ask politley "Who's there" if you said yes then i would say you're the crazy one. While you ask politley I'm arming myself and getting ready for something bad to come thru that door untill they properly identify themselves. If they don't i hope to god that robber, police or whatever that they have a bullet proof vest on.

For christ sake they're more lax on pot busts.

There was a incident like this a few years ago where this same thing happened to a older man in his 70's. He shot and killed an officer, injured another while they barged into his house.

Startled and frightened he had a right to shoot and ask questions later. He was protecting his house. Never charged for what he did. Many neighbors said he did the right thing. I don't blame him either. Police should know by now to be a little more cautious when going off a misconstrued tip from someone who isn't law enforcement.

If you believe police have a right to just barg in on your home on a incorrect tip without further investigation then you're just a waste of space.

That old man was out of his mind. It doesn't matter who is barging into your house, unless you're blind you really don't have an excuse to start shooting without considering who you're shooting at. And unless the man was firing blindly through walls he MUST have seen the officers and contiued to shoot knowing full well they were law enforcement. In most cases they announce their presense before entering a house.

You would be an idiot to do anything without first appraising the situation.

The police around here are becoming more relaxed with narcotic offenses because of all the kids who just want to get high. They'll be more lenient with sentencing if you're willing to give up information on your supplier, but most likely you're going to get at least the bare bones penalty.

[Malevolent]

Originally Posted by Murphie

What is a bullet proof vest going to do against your Samurai sword, crazy?

You definitely have the right to defend yourself and your home. That doesn't translate into a right to "shoot first and ask questions later," regardless of what you may think. Besides, you can't fire a Samurai sword. Or do you also have a longbow?

That's nice. But I don't think that, and haven't said anything of the sort. I just said you were crazy for talking about cutting people up with your Samurai sword.

I don't know where you live that you are in constant fear of the police barging into your home to kill you, but I suspect the area doesn't matter. It sounds to me like some sort of irrational mania brought on by I can't even imagine what.

lets keep the diagnosing to the professionals. I don't believe or live in fear that the police or anyone are trying to get me or bust down my door. Not at all. But if an unidentified group enters my home i will defend it by any means or whatever i can get my hands on first may it be a gun, sword, a spoon, a luffa whatever. If you think that defending=fear and irrational i'm sorry you're missing everything.

If you must know i lived on a 10 acre hobby farm in Becker, MN had 40 sheep a few cows and pigs and chickens there were a few occasions i'd kill off a few dogs and wolves terroizing my flock. Yeah I felt remorse but those pigs, chickens and sheep were a source or extra income for my family if we were to lose one or five we'd have to go without something for awhile because we couldn't afford it due to the loss. A shepherd always tends to his flock and when it's called, defends it from the wolves.

[Raydeus]

It all depends on the citizens, you can't really make a judgement on what amount of force is required without taking into consideration the people they have to police.

And it also depends on the amount of accountability the police force has for their wrongdoings. You could live in a militarized city with soldiers at every corner without problems as long as there was a respect from law enforcement towards citizens and viceversa.


But, when you see things like the Sean Bell case it's pretty obvious accountability is close to non-existent.

The only difference between this case and cases of abuse in places like China or Mexico is that this one was publicized, but other than that it was 3rd world justice in all it it's glory.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

This is the police i have to live with every day. I do know for a fact they abuse every bit of power they have and no one cares. MN police thru the state pretty much shoot and ask questions later. Plus Kare 11 news likes to make these accidents look viable and right >.> If that ever happened to me I'd be cuttin thru bitches with my samurai sword...just out of fear due to the unwelcomed barging in from unknowns... I think thats a pretty human reaction

Usually the media side against police because negative authority sells news better. It's why we'll see more news about things going wrong or abusive cops and all that stuff. Just like that "Botched Raid" map, people would rather highlight the bad then make note of the good. Where's the website that shows us how many of these raids took down known drug nests or stopped other criminal activities? I can gaurentee you there will be a lot more success then there were failures. That doesn't excuse the failures however, but it shows that cops in general get the short end of the stick in the general public.

Originally Posted by Malevolent

lol, I have a right to protect my house and family from uninvited people. If anyone barges into my house at 1am no shit am i going to be a lil ballistic and alarmed. What are you going to do when you hear someone to pund down your door? Ask politley "Who's there" if you said yes then i would say you're the crazy one. While you ask politley I'm arming myself and getting ready for something bad to come thru that door untill they properly identify themselves. If they don't i hope to god that robber, police or whatever that they have a bullet proof vest on.

For christ sake they're more lax on pot busts.

If you believe police have a right to just barg in on your home on a incorrect tip without further investigation then you're just a waste of space.

1) Depending on where you live, the law generally says that you have the right to defend your home with reasonable force, which does not include deadly force in most situations.

2) Most of the "Botched raids", and in fact most raids, are done based on possible narcotics being involed...aka things like Pot.

3) While they don't have the 'right' to barge into the wrong house, the actual blame of situations like that falls on the people who authorized it, not the ones who busted in. So technically, once the cops get that document saying they can go in your house, they can go in your house. And if you kill one, you get labeled as a cop killer and they will prosecute for that.

Originally Posted by DakAttack

That old man was out of his mind. It doesn't matter who is barging into your house, unless you're blind you really don't have an excuse to start shooting without considering who you're shooting at. And unless the man was firing blindly through walls he MUST have seen the officers and contiued to shoot knowing full well they were law enforcement. In most cases they announce their presense before entering a house.

I'm callin BS on this. If someone comes bursting into your house while your sound asleep and they're all wearing black, wielding machine guns and covering their faces, you won't know who in the hell they are and nor would you care. This is especially true for many elderly people as well as any damn parent thinking about protecting thier kids. And many times Police don't announce who they are, as far as they're concerned they're going into a highly volatile situation where a mad-man with a sub machine gun could be right behind the door, so any advantage they can get they want. Even if it is against regulations.

But at the same time if you respond to this with violence, the police are sure to respond in the same manner only in a more effective way. So this is a no win situation. And the only way to stop these types of occurances is to get the information right before action is taken. But then again if the police wait too long to move on something they may lose that opportunity. In the end, all of this stuff is horribly grey and things of this nature can never be 100% prevented unless the cops just don't do anything.

For every one bad thing cops get blamed for, they prevent a hundred other bad things. So in answer to the OP's question, again, I will say that despite the events that have been discussed here I would still rather live in a society with an "overzelous" police force because the cops are a thousand times better to live with then the criminals.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

lets keep the diagnosing to the professionals. I don't believe or live in fear that the police or anyone are trying to get me or bust down my door. Not at all. But if an unidentified group enters my home i will defend it by any means or whatever i can get my hands on first may it be a gun, sword, a spoon, a luffa whatever. If you think that defending=fear and irrational i'm sorry you're missing everything.

If you must know i lived on a 10 acre hobby farm in Becker, MN had 40 sheep a few cows and pigs and chickens there were a few occasions i'd kill off a few dogs and wolves terroizing my flock. Yeah I felt remorse but those pigs, chickens and sheep were a source or extra income for my family if we were to lose one or five we'd have to go without something for awhile because we couldn't afford it due to the loss. A shepherd always tends to his flock and when it's called, defends it from the wolves.

Hahahahaha.