[Feba]

Originally Posted by Murphie

In the United States.

Which has a huge variety of police forces. I mean, I'm not sure if you've ever moved, but I don't understand how the hell you can say that so broadly and assume they're all alike. Unless you're talking under the theory with the constitution.

Originally Posted by Murphie

Hyperbole aside, no one in the US lives in a paramilitary state.

Nobody said paramilitary state. I said, clearly, paramilitary police force. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by Murphie

I think it's entirely possible to please a majority.

Well, that's probably true. I meant "most people" as in a consensus, not a simple majority, though.

Originally Posted by Murphie

That doesn't translate into a right to "shoot first and ask questions later,"

I have to agree with this. However, I'd say people breaking into your house, yelling and screaming, pointing weapons; out of nowhere, is not only grounds enough to assume that they intend to cause you harm, but also more than enough to justify the shooting as accidental, given the confusion such a situation would cause (not to mention, to 70 year old man).

I would agree with that statement if we're talking about someone wandering around your backyard. However, these are hardly cases of shooting first and asking questions later. I don't agree with the use of lethal force in any situation; however it's not exactly as easy to obtain effective non-lethal weapons as just buying a gun, at least where I live; and they aren't always as effective at stopping someone.

Originally Posted by Ziero

Where's the website that shows us how many of these raids took down known drug nests or stopped other criminal activities?

I think the better justification would be, why are raids like this needed, compared to much tamer ones (for example, knocking on the goddamn door and seeing if people answer before you tear it down) -- and much, much more importantly, why are such raids able to be conducted with little to no evidence (an anonymous tip, or someone smelling something funny is NOT evidence. Maybe watch the place for a week or two, see if there's any suspicious activity.)

And are the drugs (or whatever other criminal activity) involved really so dangerous that they justify the invasion of people's homes and privacy, and accidental killings of innocent people, more than other alternatives?

I'll agree that police do a better job of stopping crime than causing it in most places (at least in the USA. where bribery is common, all bets are off), but the ends don't always justify the means.

[Prons]

If I'm on the side of the police, I wanna be in the overzealous. Believe it!

[Murphie]

Ok, Feba. You're right.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Murphie

Ok, Feba. You're right.

You should try reading things before you act like a smartass. I actually agreed with you, almost entirely.

[Murphie]

I read it. You're right! In certain cases we are both right.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Feba

I think the better justification would be, why are raids like this needed, compared to much tamer ones (for example, knocking on the goddamn door and seeing if people answer before you tear it down) -- and much, much more importantly, why are such raids able to be conducted with little to no evidence (an anonymous tip, or someone smelling something funny is NOT evidence. Maybe watch the place for a week or two, see if there's any suspicious activity.)

And are the drugs (or whatever other criminal activity) involved really so dangerous that they justify the invasion of people's homes and privacy, and accidental killings of innocent people, more than other alternatives?

Honestly, yes, many and most times they are needed. Drug dealers, especially larger ones, will not hesitate to fire at police. Walking up and knocking on the door to a drug lab could easily result in the perpetrators inside opening fire indiscriminately or finding a way to get away without resistance. Many times these places are even booby trapped so even without someone being inside they can still be dangerous.

Though I do agree that better and more thorough investigations need to be held before taking that sort of action. And to move on anonymous tips and such should not be enough to warrent these kinds of invasions.

It's a shame that these things happen because all the wrong people are the ones who have to pay the consequences for these incidents.

[Empedocles]

I voted Military Police State. No real reason to justify to anyone else, it's just the way I think. Iron Fist, etc, etc.

I'm not too certain about America as I don't live there, but generally when Police bust into people's homes and raid, they actually yell and scream and tell you to get down before they are allowed to open fire, so if you charged them with a weapon -of any description- then to them you want to be shot at.
If criminals are doing it, I would think that they'd just open fire immediately, and not even try to get you to surrender, perhaps actually planning to get your in your sleep.

[Malevolent]

Originally Posted by Murphie

Hahahahaha.

Wow, you really are pathetic.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by Malevolent

Wow, you really are pathetic.

Just don't cut me with your samurai sword.

[Malevolent]

Originally Posted by Murphie

Just don't cut me with your samurai sword.

If you don't come barging into my house you don't have to worry about it but if you do you know what's coming.

[Kittyneko]

I'd rather live in a society with stricter but free rules.. I like the law. Even though it affects my freedom on many things, it also protects me from many other things so.. Safety goes first ofcourse.. I really like feeling safe.

Also realize, if you haven't experienced a real society without any safety, you might need to think through what this actually would mean. Following orders and being protected is always better. Unless ofcourse, you're really controlled to the point where your deepest freedom is gone..

I'm not sure what to think about "overzealous" or "military state" but well, as long as I can walk outside freely, eat what I want, go where I want (where all other people can go anyway) and basically live my life, I don't mind any other basic rules. I don't mind being able to drive 20 miles per hour if that's the law that protects me. To make my point clear, a balanced law with con's and pro's is acceptable to not rebel too in my book. But ofcourse.. We have also have to look at the neccessity of all this. An over-controlled state in the middle of the US for example would be plain stupid. In war countrys this sounds more attractive than outside the state-borders where you can get murdered by loonatics etc.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Kittyneko

Safety goes first ofcourse.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Feba

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Wow . . . if I could thank you multiple times . . . actually, scratch that. I don't want to think about what might happen then.

[DakAttack]

Originally Posted by Feba

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Worst quote ever.

[Grizzlebeard]

If we had a super efficient police force there'd be no need for Batman. Think of the costumed crimefighters people!