[Sabaron]

Let me "inject" a few quotations and some words of my own. This is regarding the general tone of the thread and not the specific actions of the Bayer corporation btw.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao Tse-Tung
Just because he's generally regarded as a "bad guy" doesn't mean that he can't be correct. The idea here is to get people enraged, angry, and scared of violence so much so that they ask they're governors to make laws preventing citizens from posessing arms with which to defend themselves. Therefore, the government may do as it wishes with it's unarmed citizens. Since they cannot defend themselves, as long as military personnel remain controlled, small rebellions can be easily stamped out.

With regard to military personnel: It is easier to control military personnel in the US than it is to control citizens. This is by design to prevent military from siding with citizen or national groups. The military tribunal is arranged in such a way as to create an atmosphere of secrecy and treason. Military tribunals are a controlled environment, so that they can be much more easily arranged as Kangaroo Courts. [Life in Prison]? [No, thank you.] Media exposure of military personnel can also be censored or directed and propaganda can be implanted during their training when they are forced to go without sleep for long periods of time. Sleep deprivation creates a waking-dream state that has been shown to allow for the easy acquiescence of the human mind, see an initial foray into this phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing.

With regard to the specific video of the 9/11 plane crash:

Let us think of the usefulness of "conspiracy" as a device of deception while we examine the details of the event.

We will assume that the video is true and correct in its presentation of information, and that, in fact, no airplane crashed into the pentagon, but it was, rather, some type of unidentified ballistic ordnance.

Possibility 1: The ordnance was launched by a para-military group as an attack.

Possibility 2: The ordnance was launched by a non-US military group.

Possibility 3: The ordnance was launched by a US military group.

The most interesting of the 3 possibilities is #3 because it has the most "conspiracy value". Why would someone want people to think that the US shot missiles at it's own building?

Possibility 1 is the "plausible" one, not because it is in-and-of-itself necessarily plausible, but that it is "useful" for people to "believe" in it b/c it engenders hatred of ethnic group A b/c they sponsored the para-military group, thus allowing military action against ethnic group A to achieve a strategic goal.

Possibility 2 is also interesting...

Why would it be useful to direct "conspiracy thinkers" to contemplate this issue rather than focus on something more tangible?

Remember most major actions of the government are carefully planned and conceived by large groups of high-minded individuals who operate as consultants--see Rand Corporation et al:

http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/psthink.html

The idea of directing people's faith whatever it may be is very old. We can look at various religious cults which often-times pray upon relatively intelligent individuals during the formation of their adult independance (in college):

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/

How could a government, corporation, or other group use a secularized or non-secularized version of this effect to their advantage?

With regards to the practices of corporations (esp. Pharmaceuticals):

A person becomes a doctor because they wish to cure the sick. They are our White Mages. They have a deep inner desire to make sure that people don't die and that they live healthy lives.

A corporation has no soul as an entity of intellectual curiosity only. This does not mean that a person in the company cannot care about people or that the corporation's employees (on whatever level) are actually caring people who genuinely want to help others. . . nor does it necessarily indicate that these people are not instead greedy and wicked. It means that the corporation is by it's nature rather "feral" or "animal" in its operation. It is a beast that must eat money to live. Also, animal nature dictates that an entity will only do as much work as required to achieve a baseline of pleasant living and will do so in the most efficient manner possible. If it does not, it will be eaten or forced out of it's ecosystem by a better animal (see Evolution).

A Pharmaceutical corporation [Corp] (as a corporate entity, not necessarily it's employees) is concerned only with acquiescence of money from people. If a drug cured a condition, it would only be needed when the condition arose and would not sell otherwise. It would also take an immense amount of money to create (as with any drug). As the condition declines in scope, the money from those cured grows smaller and smaller, possibly not even paying for the R&D. Therefore, since Corp only lives because it eats money, Corp, in order to survive and thrive, must obtain more "food" [money] from it's investment than it expends in creation. Therefore the corporation, in order to preserve itself, will prefer to do things which sustain it for extremely long periods of time, that no one else can do (e.g. prevent others from mimicing activity via lawyers), and that, therefore, do not fix any problems but simply make them bearable. The distribution of this tainted material was an ill-formed decision. The people who made this decision panicked at the possibility of a large loss and sought a short-term solution when it would have been in the company's interest to achieve a long-term solution. Man's interaction thusly in the corporation produced a result which was not in the best interests of the corporation (e.g. an error).

[EDIT: Add Final Thought]

Note that man, himself, is at the top of the food chain. Therefore, there are very few ways to controll his overpopulation. Evolution dictates that a species will evolve to sustain itself. Overpopulation causes destruction, therefore, it is quite possibly an evolutionary benefit that man is prone to destroy himself and fight. Man regulates his own overpopulation b/c disease and other factors are routinely and continually reduced in their efficacy by man, himself. Therefore, is it a good thing that man is in some of his aspects a destructive force upon his own kind? [Sometimes this statement makes me laugh...not because it is necessarily funny, but because it is an interesting idea].
------

Why do you think I play games?

[tazirai]

Good info Sabaron.. Me and a few buddies have similar thoughts Its just amazing how, "Controlled" we are in a "free" society.

[Rodin]

Originally Posted by tazirai

Good info Sabaron.. Me and a few buddies have similar thoughts Its just amazing how, "Controlled" we are in a "free" society.

Ya, look at the rights we have to give up for "our own protection".

/em craps on the Patriot Act.

Big Brother is watching. -_-

[Quanta]

Interesting thoughts, Sabaron.

It's kind of strange though, when you think about it, that a corporation can be composed of people who wouldn't harm even a fly. Collectively, however, they can play a role in the deaths of thousands of people and still sleep at night. "Better them than us," I guess they tell themselves. I don't think I'd find that very comforting though.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by tazirai

...I have an 11 year old daughter and it just makes me nuts to think of the world im gonna leave her a part of...

I see the world of man as an interplay between various aspects of our nature. We have "Beautiful Things", "Vile Things", and "Intercessors".

A Beautiful Thing is happy and usually hard-working--it neither knows or cares of the machinations of the wicked, and cloisters its mind in Belief, Faith, and Trust. These are things like children that we love to look at (not so much in the sense of physical beauty, but rather a sublime spiritual innocence).

A Vile Thing is happy, mostly because it gets what it wants. It is a selfish thing that seeks only to better itself even if that betterment comes at the cost of all others.

An Intercessor comes in two flavors: The Guardian Intercessor, and the Perverse Intercessor. The principal nature of the Intercessor is that it thinks upon things both sublime and wicked. This means that Intercessors are rarely happy. The Guardian Intercessor was a Beautiful Thing which uses its own vile nature to protect things which it considers Beautiful. In this way its soul becomes tainted as it gazes into the eyes of the beast. The Guardian is never truly happy except when it can lapse into the blissful state of the Beautiful Thing. This generally involves self-medication (see Drugs/Alcohol) and one finds a Guardian perpetually surrounded by Beautiful Things which are the only things that make it happy. The Perverse Intercessor is a Vile Thing which must contemplate the sublime in order to serve its own interests. It generally keeps its hands out of direct contact with the Vile Things' affairs and serves merely to create Justification for wicked actions or to suggest courses of action and ideological modes to indoctrinate the masses to the end that it may preserve itself. These are always surrounded by Vile Things, but the fact that they are forced to examine Sublime nature reveals to them their own ugliness and is a cause of unhappiness. These tend to take pleasure in the corruption of Beautiful Things and one will often find them in the company of the now corrupted Beautiful. They also self-medicate.

It is a shame to think that one would be so put-off by the Vile to refuse to allow a new life to witness the Sublime nature of our reality to protect it from the Vile. To be nothing or to be something? You have obviously chosen "existance" over non-existance, so would you not think that your future children should be given the opportunity?

It is also a position of the Vile that the masses need to be culled and replaced by more subservient drones. To this end, the Vile have created many reasons and tools man can use to supress its natural urge to procreate. I tend to side with the Catholic Church on this issue (not that I am Catholic):

[WARNING: The following may be considered inappropriate, so you may have to fill in some blanks--if you cannot fill in the blanks, I suggest that this post may be beyond your current level of sophistication and you shouldn't read it--for now]

The Catholic Church supresses the following: 1) Use of "The Pill", 2) No "Self-Love".

Why is this a good thing?

Use of "The Pill" allows the vile to direct the population's growth. If Beautiful Things are not allowed to use birth control, they will reproduce and hamper the machinations of the wicked by their production of Guardians. Most children of Beautiful Things are themselves Beautiful and a few of these will become Guardians.

What is wrong with a little harmless "self-love"? When a person engages in "self-love", they "release" pent up energy which if left to accumulate would make them extremely interested in production of offspring. Therefore, limiting your "self-love" makes you more interested in courtship and eventually extremely interested in the production of offspring since you can't use "The Pill" and you can't "Love yourself" the only possibility remaining is Procreation.

Badabing! Now we have Beautiful Babies ^^

Your own nature, Tazirai, will become part of your children and while they will ultimately decide how they wish to play The Game, they will always be Beautiful to you.

[Draco Dagon]

Originally Posted by Rodin

The thing about that is most people are what I like to call "Sheep". They like to have their problems soloved for them. Many are not fully capable of realizing certain events in a situation. They will believe EVERYTHING the media tells them. And they're very conservative about their own "views", which they didn't really decide on in the first place.

People like to think they're special. That they're the only ones. Groups of people like to think their group is special, and different from everyone elses. A person, likes to think they're completely different in every which way from everyone else in the world. EVERYONE likes to think they're unpredictable and spontaneous. Don't believe me? Go up to a friend and tell him you think you can predict what a person is going to do next by observing their actions. Tell him people tend to do the same things during certain events. What will they say? "You can't do that with me, I'm different." So far, this has been true to the ~50 or so people I've said that to. EVERY ONE has said they're different.

This "Difference" is why there's war, plague. Because people think they're right. That's all. It's peoples compulsion for wanting to feel different than anyone else is why there's war.

Now I know the vast majority of you probably won't agree with me. But go and look at the causes of all wars. They were usually caused by a disagreement in politics/religion at some point.

Basically, you can't chose to accept this, you're forced to, and go around with your daily lives, while the people who make your decisions end up dictating what you do.

Hence, why a lot of people are "sheep".

No war? There would be no need for competition. No competition? No need for anyone to excel in technology. No technology? Well say goodbye to everything since the stone ages. People who want to be better than others ultimately drive everything mankind has.

Originally Posted by Rodin

Also, I've heard about scientists being apathetic to completely erradicating diseases because then there would be no money to made. Not sure if that's true, BUT, we haven't completely erradicated a diseas since polio (1934 I believe it was.)

Not quite.

If doctors were in it for the money, they would more than be willing to find cures. Anyone who finds a cure to AIDS, cancer, or any other disease is going to have their name set in stone as a god. The organization they work for everyone will trust for centuries to come. They can then create new diseases just to find a cure for, and nobody would say a damn.

Greed is what creates peace, because what is more worthy of one's fame than their name immortalized for stopping any-and/or-all supposed-forms of "decadence" (to put it simple)?


As for what happened in the OP, it's not surprising really. People are corrupted and will do what they choose.

[MadCrom]

Originally Posted by Rodin

Ever seen this one? (This should be in your 9/11 thread though.)

http://www.fugly.com/videos/5295/pen...racy.html#Main

I did see that one, a friend of mine sent it to me.. THE WORLD IS A TWISTED PLACE THE DAYS!!!!

[tazirai]

Originally Posted by Draco Dagon

No war? There would be no need for competition. No competition? No need for anyone to excel in technology. No technology? Well say goodbye to everything since the stone ages. People who want to be better than others ultimately drive everything mankind has.



Not quite.

If doctors were in it for the money, they would more than be willing to find cures. Anyone who finds a cure to AIDS, cancer, or any other disease is going to have their name set in stone as a god. The organization they work for everyone will trust for centuries to come. They can then create new diseases just to find a cure for, and nobody would say a damn.

Greed is what creates peace, because what is more worthy of one's fame than their name immortalized for stopping any-and/or-all supposed-forms of "decadence" (to put it simple)?


As for what happened in the OP, it's not surprising really. People are corrupted and will do what they choose.

I agree about the no war Thing, Its funny but with me being Ex Air force and listening to my dads conversations, He was a 2nd LT, Airtransport and fighter winger. The things he would talk to my mom about didnt make me as worried, as I am about the people that use ink pens.

As for Cures there will never be any for normal folks. If you have bronchitis cool lets cure it, If you have Diabetes, hell no, Diabetes is a cash crop. Especially in this era. But Magic Johnson Really is magic, He had HIV, now he doesnt. ^^

If I found a cure for cancer Id most likely be killed and the "cure" dilluted so it would "cure" not in a dose or treament regimen. But only after years of taking it.

Greed does make the world spin, That's why I trust people so much. I just know that someday even my best friend might shoot me in the back.

[Caspian]

Ok, lots of things I could say, but some of them, I'm afraid, I don't think I could express without offending people, so I'll stick to the others.
I do agree with you TGM, would be nice if we had people all over the government who were wholly concerned with doing what is morally right, not just beneficial to their own pocketbook. I think the problem with it, though, is that you get into the same situation the Socialism creates. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Its easy to make the right decision when there's no pressure the other way. It becomes much harder when making the opposite decision directly benefits you. It usually starts small, but over time it gets much easier to compromise your values and just help yourself. I think saying that there may be a tenth of a percent of the world's population that could stand up to that kind of pressure and continue to make the right decisions in the face of adversity. Over time you'd end up right where we are now. Politicians making decisions that directly benefit themselves and people calling for the exact same kind of change. I'm really not trying to be a naysayer, but I just think its a near inevitablity.

In regards to contracting HIV through open wounds. Yes, it is possible, but its also very difficult. Had a friend I worked with who was stuck with a needle used to draw blood from a Hepatitis postive man. (THIS IS WHY YOUNG CHILDREN SHOULND'T BE ALLOWED IN HOSPITAL ROOMS) Note: Hepatitis has a greater survivability outside the body than HIV does. After the usual montly testing for antibodies, they decided he hadn't been infected. And this was pretty straight forward, a needle that was in the man's arm, then went into my friend's thumb. So, yes it is possible to contract the virus through an open wound, it isn't especially easy and its more common that you won't become infected. Like I said, it is possible and I hope and pray for the best for your friend TGM. Let me know how it turns out.

[Balfree]

No Rodin, they will never eradicate all deseases, men depend alot on other people's problems to survive.

Just like they wont eradicate smokes, they say DONT SMOKE, but they keep selling them and advertising them, not now and not ever will common smokes be prohibited, because its a huge market.

On the subject of the OP:

You think AIDS problems in third world countries come out of nowhere? think again...

[Dairuka]

Whew, such negative outlooks on the world.

Makes me want to open up a livejournal.com account, and sing along to some fish records.

[Darkhound]

There will always be negative things in theworld, and in humanity. If we keep digging I am sure we will find more and more horrible things. Why? Why not try to focus on the good things we have and enjoy them to its fullest?

[Mog]

.....and as long as there are problems in the world, the government will continue to cover up and give the public the false implication that they're safe.

reminds me of V for Vendetta.

[Darkhound]

Take for example the movie "Hostel" - for those of you who have seen it- Do you think that things like that happen?

I have had a pretty "normal" life, but I am sure I live in a bubble, tho I have heard of bad things.

[Suichi]

The stupidity, greed, arrogance, and ignorance of the American people will never cease to amaze me.