[Sabaron]

I'm weighing the benefits of NIN Group 2 merits, and I've found very little information regarding them. Here's what I used for background:

NIN's Sange - Order of the Blue Gartr

San Ninjutsu - Order of the Blue Gartr

Other than that, I found very little info on these abilities. If anyone has a link to some more in depth information I would greatly appreciate it.

From my rough calculations, looking at two shuriken, Koga and Fuma, and using full shadows of either Ichi or Ni and assuming 90% accuracy, I calculated Sange's effect as follows:

Utsusemi: Ni
Fuma: (((((72 * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9 = 265

Koga: (((((88 * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9 = 324

Utsusemi: Ichi
Fuma: ((((72 * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9) + 72) * 0.9 = 222

Koga: ((((88 * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9) + 88) * 0.9 = 272

From that, assuming you merit it to level 5, you have a 5 min casting timer (or 300 second delay) you will get the following DPS rates:

Koga: Ni: 1.08
Koga: Ichi: 0.91
Fuma: Ni: 0.88
Fuma: Ichi: 0.74

This is basically on top of your melee DPS.

The problem I'm contemplating involves resist rates on the San jutsus. People are claiming upwards of 300 damage with them, but they're targetting ridiculously weak mobs. How do these jutsus perform on higher end mobs? Please note, that while I will look at merit mobs, I'm also looking at performance on other kinds of mobs as well. There were notes in the above thread that suggest that San performance against "boss" type mobs is feeble: averaging 10-12 damage per hit with full merits and gear.

[Andrinor]

Personally I've not bothered with NIN Group 2 merits, but what I have heard from others is they wish they had their merits back. SAN would be best utilized if you unlocked all 6, which is a whopping 18 merits just to unlock them (never mind fully meriting them).

What I've heard about Sange is it's a fun toy and I may toss some merits at it if I find myself with nothing to spend them on, but probably not a priority.

Frankly, I'd trade them all if they'd give us Jubaku Freaking Ni.

[Mezlo]

Nin group 2 merits blow, I'd spend your merits on something worthwhile.

[Malacite]

I've seen people drop 500+ damage San spells with H.Q. staves and MAB/INT gear.

It's really sweet if you have the proper set up (and are a Taru >_>) but otherwise Group 2 is pretty weak...

<3 Tool Expertise

[Mezlo]

I know this wasn't helpful, just my opinion...

[Mog]

I'm wondering, with being a taru and having novio/moldavite, would it be worth unlocking all 6? I'm not sure how much the san spells will do on big NM's, but it seems like a good way of keeping hate (ignoring the fact that you give the mob TP each time you use a spell).

[Malacite]

If you have both earrings, Ugly pendant and H.Q. staves to switch out for each spell then yes it's worth it.

[Mezlo]

Originally Posted by Malacite

If you have both earrings, Ugly pendant and H.Q. staves to switch out for each spell then yes it's worth it.

Really?!?! I'd like to see some screen shots of this 500+ damage... Sounds off. I can just think of sooo many better uses for merits. Unless you can actually hit san spells for 500...

[Malacite]

Unfortunately my friend who knows the guy that pulled that off on Seraph has been on some kind of hiatus...

He just suddenly switched to Garuda server and hasn't been responding to my messages or any of my other friends who all know him ><

It's not the most practical thing to do because of the cost but it's damn fun. Someone posted a screeny ages ago of a Taru NIN/BLM dropping Ni spells on Robber Crabs in the Tree (pretty sure it was Robber and not steelshells) for just under 200 damage a pop, and that was in the 50's level range.

I don't doubt that properly geared the San spells can hit 400~500 (not sure about over 500 but 400 minimum which is still a 2400~3000 damage rotation in 12 seconds!)

[Armando]

I don't buy 500+. Just to make 500 with /BLM, Novio Earring, Uggalepih Pendant, Moldavite Earring and an HQ staff would take having 134 more INT than the enemy.

Even 400 is quite a feat, requiring an INT difference of 94 assuming no Day/Weather procs. I highly doubt a NIN can make that sort of INT difference against anything worth talking about. In fact, I doubt you can push it that high at all without hitting the soft cap.

[Sabaron]

Well, I was looking some more and I decided that Fuma: Ni Sange would be economically infeasible at 10,000 every 5 minutes which means significantly less damage if using Manji which are reasonably priced at under 500gil per shot.

I also noticed that my equations above were flawed...

The Sange ability works like this (in pseudo):

All shadows are consumed and s is set equal to the number of shadows consumed.

for T = 1 to (s + 1)
..if throw() hits,
....continue
..else
....exit for
next

so if your accuracy is 90%, there is a 10% chance that you do no damage, and a 90% chance you do at least 1 hit worth of damage. on the second iteration your damage will be 90% to add another hit and 10% to just be the first hit and nothing more, etc. My math brain says it doesn't feel like calculating the formula, because it already knows that the result is crappier than the damage indicated in the OP and is therefore significantly less than 1 DPS. It is also of note that the damage code on Manji shuriken is 63 or 8.75% less than Fuma. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that for the following reasons, SE was retarded when they designed Sange:

• Sange cancels shadows--this means it is unwise to use it while you have hate for two reasons: (1) you will take damage, and (2) you will most likely have a sub-optimal number of shadows when you use Sange.
• The shuriken needed to make the ability more than just a gimmick are either prohibitively expensive or incredibly difficult to acquire in amounts significant enough to make use of the (with 5 merits) 5 minute recast timer.
• You will need to carry (on top of your other gear and tools), additional ranged accuracy gear to ensure the best possible chance of landing a hit off of a shuriken because a miss is multiplicatively detrimental to your overall output.

Ok, so now that Sange is known to be a complete waste of time unless using it for flash (or if you are hoping that SE changes how it works):

The only question that remains is:

Which is better?

Merit the entire San Wheel.
Specialize in 2 San Jutsus.

What are the elemental resistance reduction levels on San Jutsus? Are they greater than those for Ni, or are they still -30?

If meriting San Jutsus purely for damage, two methods need to be considered:


Method #1
Merit two San Jutsus (say Hyoton and Katon)
Open with a Ni Jutsu, follow with the appropriate San Jutsus for instance:

Huton: Ni > Hyoton: San > Katon: San
Takes 1.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 6.5 seconds. Repeat every 60 seconds possibly rounding out the wheel with Ni if you're tossing for elemental resists.

Method #2
Merit all San Jutsus to at least level 1 and then merit Hyoton to level 5 and then do the six-element wheel starting on Huton: San.

2.5 * 6 = 15 seconds. Repeat every 60 seconds.

Obviously you can wait 10 seconds between throws to make the wheel run more smoothly and allow more time for mages to take advantage of the elemental resistance reduction.

Notwithstanding DPS which I can't really calculate since there's not a lot of data, #1 looks better if elemental resistance reduction on San Jutsus is still -30, but if it's more than -30, then the #2 is obviously the better choice since you can use the spells to provide support since they are undoubtedly weak as attacks against higher-end mobs, but the unresistable resistance reduction is never bad no matter what you're fighting.

Anyone know anything about San resistance reduction? How about damage output of San Jutsus fully merited versus single merited?

The bonus for meriting to 5, btw, is +20 MAB and +20 MAcc which is a huge amount, but is it enough to push the San damage to acceptable levels on anything significant? According to one of the posts in the OP reference links:

Originally Posted by San Ninjutsu - Order of the Blue Gartr: SathFenrir

I use San spells every Ouryu BC because we manaburn, I have full ninjutsu, effect, and san merits, and I've never done more than 12 damage, ever.

Of course you will note the non-specific nature of this particular post--it doesn't properly qualify what San Jutsus work or exactly what merits the person has (Does he mean he has full San wheel with 1 level 5 Jutsu or 2 in each, etc..), but it's disappointing nevertheless that there would be no useful merits in NIN's group 2 except an ability that saves money on car insurance by switching to Geico...
______________________________
Ok... I'm sorry. I have to do the math on Sange (with Manji shuriken):

Manji Damage code: 63

HR = Hit Rate as a percentage
n = number of successful hits

General formula: HR^n * (1-HR)
Probability of a 5 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 0.9^5 = 59%
Probability of a 4 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 6.6%
Probability of a 3 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 7.3%
Probability of a 2 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 8.1%
Probability of a 1 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 9.0%
Probability of a 0 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 10%

So the general formula for damage output of Ni Sange @ 90% HR is:

0.590(5n) + 0.066(4n) + 0.073(3n) + 0.081(2n) + 0.09(n) + 0.100(0n)
or:

185.85 + 16.63 + 13.80 + 10.21 + 5.67 = 232.16 for Manji which is higher than I had estimated...... Hmm... Let's try Fuma:

215.35 + 19.27 + 15.99 + 11.83 + 6.57 = 269.01 which is actually more than my original estimate and Koga for kicks:

259.60 + 23.23 + 19.27 + 14.26 + 7.92 = 324.28

which is a bit over 1.08 DPS for Koga, 0.90 DPS for Fuma 0.77 DPS for Manji notwithstanding any increase of the base damage due to other factors.

So I was wrong not once but twice. Perhaps I'm wrong thrice--I never know... -.-

The delay on Manji Shuriken is 192, is greater than the delay of a Katana strike with Dual Wield (which is 150 or less for most high-end katana) so by using Sange instead of actually throwing the 5 stars individually, you significantly reduce the delay loss from using throwing weapons as well.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

Ok... I'm sorry. I have to do the math on Sange (with Manji shuriken):

Manji Damage code: 63

HR = Hit Rate as a percentage
n = number of successful hits

General formula: HR^n * (1-HR)
Probability of a 5 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 0.9^5 = 59%
Probability of a 4 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 6.6%
Probability of a 3 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 7.3%
Probability of a 2 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 8.1%
Probability of a 1 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 9.0%
Probability of a 0 hit Ni Sange @ 90%HR: 10%

So the general formula for damage output of Ni Sange @ 90% HR is:

0.590(5n) + 0.066(4n) + 0.073(3n) + 0.081(2n) + 0.09(n) + 0.100(0n)
or:

185.85 + 16.63 + 13.80 + 10.21 + 5.67 = 232.16 for Manji which is higher than I had estimated...... Hmm... Let's try Fuma:

215.35 + 19.27 + 15.99 + 11.83 + 6.57 = 269.01 which is actually more than my original estimate and Koga for kicks:

0.590(5n) + 0.066(4n) + 0.073(3n) + 0.081(2n) + 0.09(n) + 0.100(0n)
259.60 + 23.23 + 19.27 + 14.26 + 7.92 = 324.28

which is a bit over 1.08 DPS for Koga, 0.90 DPS for Fuma 0.77 DPS for Manji notwithstanding any increase of the base damage due to other factors.

So I was wrong not once but twice. Perhaps I'm wrong thrice--I never know... -.-

The delay on Manji Shuriken is 192, is greater than the delay of a Katana strike with Dual Wield (which is 150 or less for most high-end katana) so by using Sange instead of actually throwing the 5 stars individually, you significantly reduce the delay loss from using throwing weapons as well.

Another thing I note is sometimes Ninja will just manually cancel their Ni Shadows when recasting Ichi. On top of everything you said, turning those "canceled" shadows in to damage seems like a nice alternative, no?

[Celeal]

As for Sange, in practice I am not sure which situation is worthwhile to consume shadows for damage. If the mob is strong and dangerous, we may want to keep shadows up. If the mob is weak, there are alternative ways to inflict damage.

For San spells, instead of unlocking all six, I am thinking just focus the group 1 and 2 merit on one ... (for economical reason, I would pick the Ice element... Orz). In terms of inventory space for gear swapping and ninja tool, it would be tough to use all six San spell in good result.

[Armando]

Too early in the morning for me to read probability math. Anyways.

The delay on Manji Shuriken is 192, is greater than the delay of a Katana strike with Dual Wield (which is 150 or less for most high-end katana) so by using Sange instead of actually throwing the 5 stars individually, you significantly reduce the delay loss from using throwing weapons as well.

You can't compare them by Delays directly. The Delay -> Secs conversion for ranged attacks is different than for melee attacks (big props to VZX and his video recording/frame counting for figuring this out.) For ranged attacks, your delay in secs is approximately Delay/110, which is almost half as much as for melee (Delay/60.) Manji takes about 1.75 secs to throw, while 150 melee Delay is 2.5 secs. There's also 1.7-1.8 secs of overhead for putting away your weapon after the shot lands, and another 1.1 sec Delay after putting away your weapon during which you can autoattack, but can't shoot again yet. However, I'm not sure if those two additional Delays apply the same to throwing weapons as they do to compound/ammo-using ranged weapons.

Another thing I note is sometimes Ninja will just manually cancel their Ni Shadows when recasting Ichi. On top of everything you said, turning those "canceled" shadows in to damage seems like a nice alternative, no?

Not really since you can't use Sange while you're casting Utsusemi.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

The shuriken needed to make the ability more than just a gimmick are either prohibitively expensive or incredibly difficult to acquire in amounts significant enough to make use of the (with 5 merits) 5 minute recast timer.

This has been my single biggest beef with NIN from day one (my 2nd being elemental ninjutsu not being strong/cheap enough)