[Ellipses]

Huh. All this time and it's only half the waste of MP* I thought it was. Nifty.


* HUMOROUS HYPERBOLE*


* Not really.

[Pteryx]

Originally Posted by Bluecat

What I am trying to say is, what did you guys do before /NIN and why cant that still work today?

We fought slower, and accepted downtime as a part of FFXI life. People want fast XP with zero downtime now -- hell, "downtime" is pretty much a dirty word at this point.

It sounds like everyone you encounter is trying to apply meripo meleeburn tactics (basically, how the majority fights things at 75) to low-level XP parties and trying to fight IT+ mobs with them. Here's the thing: that doesn't work. Only the three-shadow, long-casting Utsusemi: Ichi is available until NIN37 (which means 74 if you're subbing NIN). RDM doesn't get its awesome MP-recovery tools until 40 and 41, nor does it get Haste until 48. Even BRD doesn't get its first Ballad until 25; furthermore, while BRD can consistently sleep Ts, perhaps VTs if geared well, staged pulling isn't a sure thing on ITs. Gear and damage output aren't very differentiated at the low levels, so you can't count on sheer damage output to keep the mob bouncing between the front-liners. Finally, there are no imps and no colibri at that level.

Note, however, that even before ToAU warped party expectations, RDM tended to be used as a main healer in parties. It just also enfeebled (something that's great against ITs but pointless in meleeburn) and eventually buffed, and it wasn't inconceivable for a party to have a RDM enfeebling and buffing and a white mage main healing. -- Pteryx

[MrMageo]

I personally have a love hate relationship with /nin. I love it in meripo because It means the party can go forever. Being a RDM I also love it for soloing. I hate however the decline in skill players receive from it. However I do love the fact that they die fast because they have lost all concept of hate control.

RDM/NIN is usefull in a party situation. In rare circumstances. More specifically in pulling . Sometimes I have had to pull in a meripo and I always /nin for this especially on lolibri. In colibri parties getting a sleep cast on you can be detremental. Blink is 75% effective but utsu is 100%. Eating a sleep spell slows things down (especially if there is no one to wake you back up.

Other times I go /NIN to parties is in the rarity I am able to melee. (although Ive since prefered to /DNC, /BLU for the support they offer). In addition to this, once you have merited yourself and have appropriate gears, dual weilding wands with +INT/+MND becomes better than using a staff. I have 315 enfeebling skill (+10 if I switch into my crimson head) I don't need staves to land enfeebles on merit mobs anymore. So the best thing I can do is get some INT/MND and build the potency of the spells.

It is a very effective subjob for RDM solo/party play at lower levels and 75. But again just like I say for those who wish to melee 51-75 is staff time, and backlining is better.

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Pteryx

It sounds like everyone you encounter is trying to apply meripo meleeburn tactics (basically, how the majority fights things at 75) to low-level XP parties and trying to fight IT+ mobs with them. Here's the thing: that doesn't work. Only the three-shadow, long-casting Utsusemi: Ichi is available until NIN37 (which means 74 if you're subbing NIN). RDM doesn't get its awesome MP-recovery tools until 40 and 41, nor does it get Haste until 48. Even BRD doesn't get its first Ballad until 25; furthermore, while BRD can consistently sleep Ts, perhaps VTs if geared well, staged pulling isn't a sure thing on ITs. Gear and damage output aren't very differentiated at the low levels, so you can't count on sheer damage output to keep the mob bouncing between the front-liners. Finally, there are no imps and no colibri at that level.

This has been a huge issue I've seen in leveling PLD so far(42 currently), people forcing endgame mechanics into mid-level parties. The biggest problem I see is no understanding that 'TP Burn' requires that DDs actually have hi-output WS', and at 40 the only one I see that has one is MNK.

On topic, to Bluecat, I really, really did not like NIN either. I just didn't like the gameplay more than anything, it was a pain to level...however the usefulness of the subjob is something that can't be denied, just suck it up and get it to 37, then never touch it again(I could say the same about any job, I've done it for NIN/WHM/BLM/DNC now). While the people you've talked to seem to misunderstand the correct circumstances for /NIN, the times when it is called for it is virtually irreplaceable in terms of effectiveness.

Someone(sorry forgot who) posted about how efficiency is so valued now, and really this is true, and it's for a good reason: grinding out levels is not the best the game has to offer. It's a mundane process you go with in order to have jobs that can do the stuff you actually want to do, to see storylines and fight big fights with your friends. There's 2 things that are best when done with maximum efficiency, leveling and farming/making gil, because those are the 2 biggest things that make people quit when they take too long to get done.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

3) Doesnt WHM or RDMs Blink spell work as good as "Shadows" do?

Blink isn't as perfect as Utsusemi, there's always a chance one of the three Blink shadows can be bypassed and you can get tagged. Utsusemi will always absorb the hit if connected and shadows are available.

4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN.

Ok, so your friends are stupid.

I dont have a problem with leveling NIN at all that is not the issue, I would love to have NIN as a main! I just dont want to use it on every damn job in this game. I heard that /NIN was never even really heard of a few years back.

Mid and low level PTs trying to employ high-level tactics and failing horribly is nothing new to this game. The style is different, the lack of thought behind it is still the same.

I have also noticed that a lot of stuff has turn to crap in FFXI in the last 5 years sense I have played. A lot of jobs seem to be miss used for what they really are ment for. One is RDM, it is treated like a whm, but its not. I just think that this game has turned into Lazyness.

When enfeebling ceases to have a point when mobs die so quickly and they're resistant to nukes, what else is a RDM supposed to do? You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.

Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town? Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.

Simply put, when you take up a job like RDM, you KNOW what you're in for. You know it has cures, you know that if you level a WHM sub, you will have access to all status cures and two tiers of Curaga. This will influence how the job is played. There's the option of absuing your role for invites and subbing anything but /WHM, but PTs won't really appreciate you for it, just merely tolerate your existance. I know a RDM that's been 72 for three months just because he's a stubborn ass that refuses to level a WHM sub because he doesn't want to be a curebot.

Don't want to be a curebot? Don't level RDM - simple as that. Don't fault the PTs that invite you for expecting to play your role efficiently. EXP/Merit PTs are about efficiency so we can move on to doing other shit.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Originally Posted by Bluecat

4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN. 5) I only dislike it because they wont shutup, people treat it like its the only fricken subjob there is especaily to noobs like me.

I don't have a problem is people don't want to sub NIN. If players want to sub something other than NIN, it wouldn't bother me. But every time I turn around, there are anti /NIN threads. I only dislike this stance because people won't shutup about how /NIN has "ruined" the game.

[Feba]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today.

This.

As elitist as FFXI may be now (and probably always will be-- the community hates anything less than the best), it has been far worse.

[Bluecat]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Blink isn't as perfect as Utsusemi, there's always a chance one of the three Blink shadows can be bypassed and you can get tagged. Utsusemi will always absorb the hit if connected and shadows are available.



Ok, so your friends are stupid.




Mid and low level PTs trying to employ high-level tactics and failing horribly is nothing new to this game. The style is different, the lack of thought behind it is still the same.



When enfeebling ceases to have a point when mobs die so quickly and they're resistant to nukes, what else is a RDM supposed to do? You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.

Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town? Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.

Simply put, when you take up a job like RDM, you KNOW what you're in for. You know it has cures, you know that if you level a WHM sub, you will have access to all status cures and two tiers of Curaga. This will influence how the job is played. There's the option of absuing your role for invites and subbing anything but /WHM, but PTs won't really appreciate you for it, just merely tolerate your existance. I know a RDM that's been 72 for three months just because he's a stubborn ass that refuses to level a WHM sub because he doesn't want to be a curebot.

Don't want to be a curebot? Don't level RDM - simple as that. Don't fault the PTs that invite you for expecting to play your role efficiently. EXP/Merit PTs are about efficiency so we can move on to doing other shit.

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.

I am not going to quit FFXI because I like it, those are just the top 2 things that I hate about this game, and at times turn me off from it.
I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN

[little ninja]

Bottom line is you should have all subjobs to 37 to sub whatever benifets your group. If they want you to go /nin. The really you should go /nin. If you don't like it make our own pt with your own rules. But be warned players will remember.

When you solo you can go whatever your little heart desires. Go Blu/Pup for all I care.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by Bluecat

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

This is going to turn into a Red Mage discussion...

Originally Posted by Bluecat

I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN

As mentioned already, you do not need /NIN for Dark Knight. DRK/WAR is perfectly fine if not the best subjob (at least until level 60. /SAM starts getting good around then).

[Ellipses]

Originally Posted by Silent Howler

This is going to turn into a Red Mage discussion...

Doesn't everything?

[Callisto]

Originally Posted by Bluecat

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

This is coming from someone who has been RDM for a long time now, and who has tried practically every aspect of it aside from /petjobs. I've at least attempted to use WAR, DRK, WHM, BLM, NIN, PLD, SMN, and even RNG as subjobs. And anyone who has played with me in game, and most of those who frequent the RDM boards here by now, will tell you that I'm am one of the least supportive of Pink Mage...that said, mechanics of the game are as such: RDM/WHM with a BRD and 4 DDs will see a shitload of XP in a short amount of time later on in the game. It's lazy, it's easy, but to be honest I don't care. I don't enjoy XPing because it's bland and repetitive, so I do what is easiest to get the most out of my XP time, so that I can spend more of my time doing the fun, challenging things in the game.

Originally Posted by Bluecat

if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.

For starters things used to be different. I leveled WHM sub when I did BLM, however I used it maybe twice before I hit 75, because that's not how the game was played. RDM wasn't known to be the most efficient XP party healer in the game back then, it is now. I don't use subjobs because they are popular, I use them because they're effective. Again, why would I want to spend more time getting less XP, when I can get my XP, gtfo, and go do something less boring?

Originally Posted by Bluecat

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.

You're again missing the part of leveling quickly. It's more about using jobs like WAR/NIN to get faster XP and get to 75 faster, so that you can go WAR/SAM or WAR/THF or something else fun and do big fights and put up big #'s. As a RDM it's getting my merits quickly so that I'm better prepared to land that big spell at a clutch moment, instead of not being able to quite get there yet because my last party was too slow.
______________________________

Originally Posted by Ellipses

Shouldn't everything?

FTFY.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Bluecat

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

Well, as a RDM75, I'm telling you now: Don't level Red Mage.

Seriously, a RDM is meant to be flexible, and do whatever is best for the party/alliance. In lower level exp party, it's enfeebling and curing (and MB if there's SC). In mid level parties, it's an unpredictable, crazy mix of enfeebling, Cure, Haste, Refresh, and maybe even MB. In merit parties, it mostly becomes Haste/Refresh/Cure with minor enfeebling.

Once beyond exp/merit parties, things change up. On Kirin fights, that's one RDM (/BLM or /WHM) on Refresh/backup curing for the PLD kiter (and help out with summons), while another RDM/NIN play co-kiter. When duo'ing Aura Statue for Diorite, it's RDM/BLM (my sister) and RDM/SCH (me) for Gravity/Sleep/nukes. For Dynamis, it's crowd control as RDM/BLM or CS stunner as RDM/DRK for Xacabar.

In just about every activity I've listed, I use Cure spells. That's right, you need your Cure spells, if you're RDM. Cure is an integral part of RDM's arsenal--and is useful and used at every level from Lv.3 on.

If you don't like using cure, don't play RDM. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by Bluecat

if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.

A RDM75 without /WHM is gimped. (Same goes for those without /BLM.)

Originally Posted by Bluecat

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.

A good NIN isn't lazy; you can't play NIN tank effectively unless paying full attention. A DD making effective use of /NIN isn't lazy--he's playing smartly.

First you complain about Cure, now you complain about Refresh (in a rant against NIN, of all things). Again, it's a sign to stop leveling RDM.

Originally Posted by Bluecat

I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN

*shrug* You'll find out, if you really level DRK.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Don't level Red Mage.

IMHO, I think this is the best piece of advice anybody can give at this point.

And, yes. I'm well aware of the ironing of my intent on taking it to 75 anyway.

[Silent Howler]

I would recomend Blue Mage like everyone else does with the Red Mage issue, but Blue Mage is one of the most common jobs that use /NIN. Haha.

Suck it up. This is the reality of the game.