[LadyKiKi]

True, it's noticable in the safest/carefree circumstances.

Like a BST's Charm Rate, and probably just fate itself, the more you need to rely on it in a situation that's very important, the less it'll become reliable.

I drew this graph earlier a few weeks back:



I bet the same can be applied to evasion.

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v
Likewise, you WILL get punched in the face by Aquarius if you're at 20HP with +100 evasion (from random factors combined) and Aquarius has 1% HP left.

But yeh, noticable is true. I had +53 evasion as THF/NIN back at level 30 (Hairpin:10, Traits:20, Jack-O-Lantern:10 Dodge Earringx2:6, Battle Gloves:3, kingdom trousers:3, Beetle Harness:1) and sure as hell, whenever my shadows go down I still get hit when recasting.

But yeh, as you said, wait and see.

[Zempten]

You can't really factor in solo vs PT.

When your solo, the only person you can rely on is yourself. When your PTing, other people around you are helping you out whether it's the DDs giving it their all to DMG the mob as much as possible or the support jobs keeping everything running smoothly (enhancing,enfeebling, and healing).

You could say it somewhat like this. When your soloing, say you can take down a mob's life by 5-10% with Utsusemi: Ni up (constantly being stripped). When your Pting, you can take down a mob's life by 10-20% with Utsusemi: Ni up (constantly being stripped).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that "If your getting your shadows stripped off at such a rate where evasion is hardly helping, then your better off filling those evasion slots with something that'll hurt the mob more". The circumstance this occurs usually is in exp PTs where your hunting ITs. It's the same reason why a PLD wearing a Hauby vs Gallant is hardly THAT huge of a difference except in a defense argument.

P.S: An exception to this is if your PT sucks. That's in terms of if the DDs just aren't doing the type of damage they should or your healer/supporter is off watching some latest TV show while exping and not giving a shit about you. The best example I can give you is fighting crawlers in Mt Zy with the RDM not dispelling and our WHM not curing me after an Incinerate @ 80% HP. Then they shout out "YOUR WEARING A HAUBY!" and I swap and the same thing happens. Massive deaths and LONG LONG exp fights.

Last edit. In the end it's really just up to you. If you feel most comfortable with just cruising along with evasion build then by all means go ahead as long as your holding hate. It's just some of us like to squeeze every little bit out of a job as we can and that's where you hear people like me say the stuff I do in the above paragraphs. It's just to make it more fun. I mean if you can keep shadows up while wearing DD gear without having 10 or 15 seconds in between your Ni & Ichi why not? It's an extra bonus.

[Tipsy]

Yaa I hear what you're saying, I guess it all depends, I suppose it'll just be smart to have a set of each, and mix accordingly on how the party goes? Of course maintaining a higher DD+input than EVA. I've done a few PTs recently with haub on and storm loop instead of velocity, and sure my shadows are gone slightly faster, but, it isn't hard to just start casting ichi when my last ni shadow is left, or whatever, with haste90% of the time its fine.

Thanks again for all the positive input.

[Lmnop]

I've seen some allusion to a point but no one really out and saying it so I will:

You cannot avoid Pecking Flurry if shadows=true. Any multi-hit WS of mobs, for some reason, never checks evasion until all shadows have been wiped. Thus, while I most certainly believe you avoided an entire Pecking Flurry, it was due to you already having no shadows (a situation where a DD tank would've been hit for sure).

It's guaranteed to take 3. Only losing 1 shadow is because you only had 1 remaining, etc.

If you'd like to test it out, go tank gobs in kazham or even the dunes. get them to Goblin rush you with fresh shadows and max evasion gear. I bet you'll lose 3 shadows despite them not being able to land a normal swing for the life of 'em (incidentally, have fun feeding them tp w/out killing them).

----

For the above reason, most Ninja find that giving them less opportunity to use Pecking Flurry is the way to go. You can hold hate all you want... but if a DD NIN can hold hate just as well and kill faster (and mage MP can accept the increase healing), then poof! you have better exp.

And that's where our little society sits currently: we have more than enough mp.

[Tipsy]

Well, I can't argue hence I don't remember if I had shadows up when it said "The Lesser Colibri uses Pecking Flurry, but misses Tipsy." but I do know for a fact it did happen because, I remember bragging about it <__<. I always was left wondering why it hardly ever misses and the closest to a miss I'll find will just do low damage (70ish_) thanks for clarifying.

Also, would it be smart, in that case, to upgrade to O.kotes? I use H.kotes atm..
Pretty much because they were cheaper lol.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by LadyKiKi

I think people are looking at evasion the same was as they look at defense. Although in this case evasion is actually a bit more noticable, but at the end of the day it comes down to: "Well if the mob is gonna hit me anyway/hit me for X amount), why bother?"

It's not our fault that people frown on defense/evasion, it's the game mechanics that makes us feel that these stats appear near useless for anything 3~5+ levels tougher than yourself.

But that's because people are stupid. There's a big difference between getting hit 3 times a fight and getting hit 5 times a fight. Both still get hit, but the difference will definitely be reflected in the MP of the person who has to keep you alive after 10 fights.

The same goes for getting hit for 60 or hit for 80 - it doesn't look like much, but after you've been hit a few dozen times or so, it really adds up. (Especially for self-healing tanks like PLD, BLU or WAR/DNC: when the amount you can cure yourself is fixed, the amount that has to be cured by someone else changes even more dramatically than the total damage you take.)


The main thing that works against this analysis: if your party has no trouble producing as much healing as you need without downtime when you aren't wearing def/eva, then there's no effective benefit to it compared to killing faster. In other words, if the fights are already way too freaking easy even when the tank isn't using real tank gear, then there's no reason they should. Lolibri almost always fall into this category; that's why def/eva are disfavored in those camps.

This is the same logic as inviting more DD instead of healers/support; ultra-easy mobs promote more DD in the party and more DD gear on each player, because the only thing that matters is how fast they die. Ultra-easy mobs also give way more exp than they should given how easy they are, which is why they're enormously popular for exp/merit now that there are areas where you can easily find huge numbers of them. *If* this balance problem is ever fixed and fighting challenging mobs is more favorable (exp/hr wise) than easy ones, then the need for tanks that can tank will come back. Several years after ToAU I no longer have faith that SE will fix this problem, or intends to fix it, or is even aware that it exists.

[IfritnoItazura]

Last night, I partied as PLD74/NIN37 with a NIN/WAR main tank in a (mostly Lv.72) party without traditional healer. My conclusion: If you play NIN, please have a DD set, and stick in some enmity gear. Macro the set in for WS, use some pieces for a hybrid TP'ing, whatever; just have the equipment ready.

* * *

Landed in a Puk/Mamool Ja party blindly as PLD/WAR at first--turn out a BLM was the main healer, and no refresher in party. Only me and the BLM had cure. See that, I figured I should be the off tank, and let the NIN be main tank to save MP.

That didn't work well.

If I used Vorpal Blade (even with the low damage Joyeuse), I'd end up tanking. If I casted Flash to help out the NIN when he's casting Utsusemi, I'd end up tanking. If I used Rampart to block magic attacks, I'd end up tanking. If I DoT'ed with Berserk up, I'd end up tanking. If I dropped two Cure III's on the NIN, I'd end up tanking. And, if any of that happened, I'd still be tanking again, 5 seconds after the NIN used provoke.

That was on a DD set without any enmity gear; my only source of enmity was Dorado Sushi (at a measly enmity+3). x_x;

Not that I mind tanking normally, but without a real healer and sans Refresh, it was draining too much MP too fast; had to switch to PLD/NIN in order to prolong chain and increase safety.

The NIN was keeping up Utsusemi as well as can be expected on Puks and Mamool Ja; the player definitely had that skill down. I didn't check gear, but noticed he had Scorpion Harness, and wasn't wearing any visible head gear (so probably Empress Hairpin). Whatever he was using, he was decent at keeping copy images up--but, was not effective at tanking.

He can start off the fight with Provoke and Blade: Jin, and I'd still be tanking until the next Provoke if I use Vorpal Blade as PLD/NIN (Company/Joyeuse). If I used Flash, I would end up main tanking (Utsusemi style) as often as not.

That only changed when a DRG/BLU replaced a SAM; the DRG ended up co-tanking after landing WS (sometimes, even before WS...). Good thing he had Cocoon and Healing Breath III.

* * *

NINs really need a complete DD set much earlier than merit party. At least use it for weaponskills, and should experiment with hybrid DD set depending on party and camp. Try to add enmity gear, too.

[Karinya]

72 on puks is not "much earlier than merit party". It's basically the same mobs a merit party would fight, fought pretty much the same way.

It's worlds different (and easier, and less balanced) than the dynamics of a 50-60 party (colibri aside).

That aside, you'll generally get more enmity from enmity than you will from DD. That's what it's there for. There's usually at least 3 other DDs in the party, so if you think your personal damage is going to end fights noticeably faster, you're kidding yourself.

Five melees and a BLM seems almost designed to fail, so I don't know how much conclusion you can really draw from it. (I'd also point out that enmity control is a team effort, and DDs that pull too much hate are just as responsible as tanks that pull too little. The only time a player gets a free pass for going over hate is if they're the healer and somebody would have died if they didn't.)

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Karinya

72 on puks is not "much earlier than merit party". It's basically the same mobs a merit party would fight, fought pretty much the same way.

I don't know about that; each fight was long long enough for 2 to 3 provokes when it was 5 front line plus BLM backline. The front was a bit weak at the start; I think one of the WAR was using the party for skill ups. -_-# It's a burn party set up without much burning...

Originally Posted by Karinya

It's worlds different (and easier, and less balanced) than the dynamics of a 50-60 party (colibri aside).

It's been a long time since I did 50's and 60's. Can an evasion setup really handle the stronger DDs?

Originally Posted by Karinya

That aside, you'll generally get more enmity from enmity than you will from DD. That's what it's there for.

Enmity from gear (and food, presumably) is a multiplier, so it works well with both damage output from any tank, as well as curing from a PLD. Like sushi which becomes better with more base accuracy, enmity gear is better when you can generate more enmity to start with.

Just using enmity gear alone probably wouldn't do all that much; enmity+10 means a Provoke decades to 0 VE in 33 seconds instead of 30 seconds, handy but hardly earth shattering.

Originally Posted by Karinya

Five melees and a BLM seems almost designed to fail, so I don't know how much conclusion you can really draw from it.

The only real conclusion I can draw regarding NIN's gearing is that it didn't work; the DRG and I shouldn't have been able to turn monsters from melee swings alone, at least not on a regular basis. (I also should have been able to use Flash to help out the NIN with Utsusemi recast without seeing the NIN's next Provoke do nothing...)

The party churned a bit; when it finally did work like a burn party, it became: NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, WAR/DNC, DRG/BLU, PLD/NIN, BRD/NIN. (Lost the BLM.) Odd, but the WAR/DNC and DRG/BLU did most of the curing. When it becomes a burn party, yes, fine, not expecting the NIN to really tank. Before getting the BRD, though, the fights were pretty long and the party needed a little better performance from the NIN.

(It was a bit sad; I was at the same camp at Lv.71 with a PLD, DRK x2, some DD, RDM, SCH setup with no BRD to buff the front line, and that party was killing the Puks nearly as fast, with far better safety.)

Originally Posted by Karinya

(I'd also point out that enmity control is a team effort, and DDs that pull too much hate are just as responsible as tanks that pull too little. The only time a player gets a free pass for going over hate is if they're the healer and somebody would have died if they didn't.)

Well, this is very true in theory. Still, the tank is responsible for setting the bar high enough so at least the DDs don't have to worry over regular melee swings.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

It's been a long time since I did 50's and 60's. Can an evasion setup really handle the stronger DDs?

DDs don't get that much stronger until higher levels (or to put it equivalently, monsters don't have such conspicuous glass jaws).

Enmity from gear (and food, presumably) is a multiplier, so it works well with both damage output from any tank, as well as curing from a PLD. Like sushi which becomes better with more base accuracy, enmity gear is better when you can generate more enmity to start with.

Just using enmity gear alone probably wouldn't do all that much; enmity+10 means a Provoke decades to 0 VE in 33 seconds instead of 30 seconds, handy but hardly earth shattering.

But you won't get that much damage from any one gear slot either. All I'm saying is that in almost any given gear slot, you'll get more enmity from wearing enmity there (which also affects your provokes, flash/kurayami, cures if you have them, and any other hate grabbing actions you may have) than from the minor increase in damage you'll get from wearing damage gear in that slot. Damage is mainly based on your weapon, your skill with that weapon, damage boosting job traits and abilities, and food. It takes a lot of equipment changes to alter it by even a few percent - and a 5% increase in your overall damage is still not as good hatewise as +5 enmity, because +5 enmity gives you 5% more damage hate *and* 5% more hate from all other sources.

If your hate generation is increased but your hate decay is not, then you'll retain significantly more hate over time. I'm not sure how much rigorous testing there is on gaining and losing hate from multiple sources at once, but if you can't do much about hate loss, then boosting your hate gain is important.

(re: hate control is a team effort)

Well, this is very true in theory. Still, the tank is responsible for setting the bar high enough so at least the DDs don't have to worry over regular melee swings.

As long as those "regular swings" aren't with berserk + souleater up, yeah. (Although tanks can still lose hate to a string of crits or something, especially at high levels.)

But for the most part, you don't reach that point by out-DDing the DDs (because as a tank job, you won't have the traits/JAs/equipment selection to do so). You reach it *partly* through doing damage, but also through having other hate-grabbing actions like provoke/flash/cures/ninjutsu, and +enmity supports both sides of the strategy at once. Damage gear only helps one side, and slot for slot, usually helps it no more, if not less. (Obviously you have to consider the specific benefits of the individual pieces of gear you're selecting, though.)

Tanks have two basic responsibilities: (1) keep the mob's attention, and (2) don't die, because when you die, you lose the mob's attention and cause downtime. Damage helps slightly with one of those responsibilities and doesn't do jack for the other.

Evasion, on the other hand, helps directly with both; you lose less hate for being swung at and missed than for being hit (especially for damage), and the survival benefits are obvious. Unless your party is over-defended (see upthread), something that helps you keep hate *and* take less damage is double good. (Haste is another twofer for ninjas.)


P.S. How much ninjutsu did your ninja use aside from utsusemi? #1 sign of a lousy ninja. Kurayami:Ni alone is *-30 accuracy* (regardless of stats) and a nice chunk of hate too (more if you have enmity gear).

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Karinya

DDs don't get that much stronger until higher levels (or to put it equivalently, monsters don't have such conspicuous glass jaws).

I remember a past perma where the PLD was having loads of trouble with the MNK in late 40's and early 50's.

Originally Posted by Karinya

But you won't get that much damage from any one gear slot either. All I'm saying is that in almost any given gear slot, you'll get more enmity from wearing enmity there (which also affects your provokes, flash/kurayami, cures if you have them, and any other hate grabbing actions you may have) than from the minor increase in damage you'll get from wearing damage gear in that slot.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not really familiar with NIN's equipment, but searching the neck slot: Peacock Charm is Accuracy+10, which works out to be 5% better hit rate if under accuracy cap. The best a NIN can do enmity wise is Ritter Gorget (Eva+5 Enmity+3), or Harmonia's Torque (STR+2 Enmity+3). Those are pretty high level, though; the Lv.50 Hateful Collar (enmity+1) is more applicable for the OP's situations, I think.

Haste, Accuracy, Attack, Damage Mitigation, and Enmity gear together form positive reinforcement to increase tanking ability. (Until cap is reached--which realistically only happens for Accuracy.)

Originally Posted by Karinya

(re: hate control is a team effort)

As long as those "regular swings" aren't with berserk + souleater up, yeah. (Although tanks can still lose hate to a string of crits or something, especially at high levels.)

Er, should be able to handle DD's DoT with Berserk up; NIN/WAR itself has Berserk, after all. I don't demand 100%, iron clad lock on the monster, but between Provoke and their own DoT output, NINs shouldn't do that badly.

Originally Posted by Karinya

Tanks have two basic responsibilities: (1) keep the mob's attention, and (2) don't die, because when you die, you lose the mob's attention and cause downtime. Damage helps slightly with one of those responsibilities and doesn't do jack for the other.

Evasion, on the other hand, helps directly with both; you lose less hate for being swung at and missed than for being hit (especially for damage), and the survival benefits are obvious. Unless your party is over-defended (see upthread), something that helps you keep hate *and* take less damage is double good. (Haste is another twofer for ninjas.)

Evasion only helps a NIN if the monster's swing at him. Make sure the monsters want to swing at the NIN should be the priority. Can always macro in evasion after that issue is settled.

Originally Posted by Karinya

P.S. How much ninjutsu did your ninja use aside from utsusemi? #1 sign of a lousy ninja. Kurayami:Ni alone is *-30 accuracy* (regardless of stats) and a nice chunk of hate too (more if you have enmity gear).

It was one of those "Utsusemi only" NINs. Kurayami: Ni is 80 CE and 240 VE, so probably would have helped. Wish he at least used Hojo; I burned a lot of Shihei with him as main tank. ^_^;

He really wasn't set up right; my Vorpal Blade was averaging 366 on a mix of Puks and Mamool Ja, while his Jin was 237. (Blade: Jin is supposed to be a lot stronger than Vorpal Blade, right?) A stronger WS, especially at the start of each fight, probably would've helped his tanking quite a bit.

[Tipsy]

He definatly didn't have the right setup then, I know it's alot easier to hold hate with pure DD gear and macroing in Eris Earrings and what not on provoke and the sort for short term fights, now. But also, have a good STR/ATTK/ACC mods for WSing in to pump in more hate. My Blade: Chi does 300+ (495 high) average with minor WS gear. Which brings me to another question: For Blade: Jin, since it's 30% STR 30% DEX, would Alkys/Pallas be a smart idea? The +11/9 STR is nice, however the -5DEX .. not so much. Or would H/O.kotes be better?

And I guess It's good a move to have a macro for when your shadows are gone--I mean when you're ultra naked (Both timers are down, due to the result of an unexpected multi-hit WS twice in a row or something)-- like toss on a Jelly ring, maybe Arhats+1? Maybe even in a desperate situation throw the whole HNM set on lol

[Celeal]

Just my 2 gil on NIN main tank on Puk and Sea Puk....

TBH, Puk is very nasty for NIN main tanking:
(1) Very short delay per round of attack, compare to others. On top of that, Puk can double attack.
(2) AoE knock back attack: If lucky (rare) strip 2 shadows; if unlucky (often) strip all shadows and "extreme" knock back (interrupt casting).
(3) Crosswind, that fan-share wind knock back wind attack: No shadows stripping, but interruption NIN's spell casting.
(4) High resist to an average NIN's debuff: Puks are Dragons. An average NIN/WAR is not gear of debuffing Puks.
(5) AoE Flash, and blink.... it is bad for all melee... but very bad for NIN tank when trying to gain hate against time.

The longer the battle, more (alot more) special moves spam by the Puk.

The NIN in IfritnoItazura's party geared for evasion naturally in that party setup. That is just my opinion:
Ideal DD NIN tank setup uses Haste to bridge the gap for shadows recast, and also use that Haste for damage output. In the 5 DD + BLM setup, which means no Haste on the NIN, which means no basis for DD NIN tank build at all.

P.S. Sorry for the broken sentences.... /em really need some sleep~ Good night

[SomeMithra]

Eh I kinda skimmed all the passages here but I didn't see any mention of the fact that you really don't need EVA gear higher levels in a well set up party.

Haste + March = Ni -> Ni

Even without March when I was leveling my NIN I was going Ni -> Ni in a hauby in some cases (and att/enm gear instead of eva gear), and I never found myself without shadows unless a friggin Bird just pecked the shit out of them and I still had to recast.

Even with all the added ENM and damage gear though, our static warrior still pulled hate every now and then. At least when there was no THF.

On another note, VS Colibri's my main priority shadow cast was Ichi as opposed to Ni. It helped a lot since when they did take down my shadows I had Ni to fall back on. Also vs Colibri's I had a higher focus on EVA gear and brough along a THF to help me out. I can recall at around level 63 fighting greater colibris and not getting hit much at all (meaning 1-3 times every 5 fights or so).

Oh and I never did fight puks, so no advise there.

[Karinya]

I normally don't have much patience with people who whine about "thread necro", but if you're going to post in a 7 month old thread *and not even read it*, sheesh. The difference between 50-60s and 70+ is extensively discussed in the thread.

Additionally, bards don't grow on trees. Not all parties have one. Having stacked haste buffs is very nice for a ninja (especially since the same rdm and bard also cast slow and elegy) but you shouldn't come to every party *expecting* to get that.