[Hilde]

my thoughts...I leveled my main and started to work on an alt. leveled PLD & war to 20 before turning to NIN.
I am not sure if it is true or how it works, but I held hate better than the PLD 9 out of 10 times working as a low level NIN.
enemity might carry over from other jobs worked on... /shrug

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Hilde

my thoughts...I leveled my main and started to work on an alt. leveled PLD & war to 20 before turning to NIN.

I am not sure if it is true or how it works, but I held hate better than the PLD 9 out of 10 times working as a low level NIN.

enemity might carry over from other jobs worked on... /shrug

Enmity doesn't carry over from job to job.

The only reason NIN might hold hate better than PLD for a while in the early levels is before Paladins get access to Cure II, while Ninjas have Utsusemi: Ichi (roughly level 12-16). The NIN will lose less enmity since they're blinking away hits, while the Paladin is steadily losing ground because he's getting hit.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Icemage

...(the -resist effect always takes place regardless of how much damage you do, and sticks for a while)...

I believe it's 15 seconds of Resistance down, but I couldn't find a referential link.

[Vyuru]

I honestly don't think you have to use the dorado sushi or shuriken to tank like IfritnoItazura is suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, those are awesome tools to use. However I have partied with plenty of ninja tanks before sushi was ever implemented, and nobody wanted to use shuriken back then either, and those ninjas held hate just fine.

I'm just saying this because last I checked Dorado sushi and any kind of shuriken were hideously expensive even for ninja food/tools.

One thing I see some ninja tanks doing is casting an enfeeble as the puller brings in the mob, provoke, cast utsu when shadows are down and so on, I'm kind of wondering if that is a good thing to do in the lower levels before you get the Ni line of spells?

[Shadowneko]

Originally Posted by Icemage

Enmity doesn't carry over from job to job.

The only reason NIN might hold hate better than PLD for a while in the early levels is before Paladins get access to Cure II, while Ninjas have Utsusemi: Ichi (roughly level 12-16). The NIN will lose less enmity since they're blinking away hits, while the Paladin is steadily losing ground because he's getting hit.


Icemage

Didn't one of the updates fix that? Something about if you loose a shadow you loose Emenity?

anyway I'm silly because I think Nin/war=dead duck anywho XD

And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Shadowneko

Didn't one of the updates fix that? Something about if you loose a shadow you loose Emenity?

The enmity loss is very minimal. Most Ninjas didn't even notice the change - it certainly hasn't done anything to impact their effectiveness as tanks.

anyway I'm silly because I think Nin/war=dead duck anywho XD

NIN/WAR is actually very effective... once you're past level 37. Tanking in XP parties with just Utsusemi: Ichi is pretty ick.

And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)

This is a common complaint. It gets much better once you get +4 shadows from Utsusemi : Ni.


Icemage

[tdh]

Originally Posted by Omni

funny how the reliance on sushi is so strong now.
i went through nin eating mithakabobs because sushi was not available then. oh how times change.

Originally Posted by Icemage

Times do change. Sushi has completely transformed the FFXI combat landscape.

The good ole days when all melee ate Mithkabobs, and all mages ate Pies. S-E said they felt that so many foods weren't getting used so they changed the system. All it did was swap one popular food for another on the melee side, but at least the mages are mixing it up!

As for the OP, I have managed to hold hate, and keep shadows up pre-Lv.37. It just required 2 BLUs spamming Head Butt to do it! ^^ Ninjutsu Blind & Slow do build hate, just as any spell or action in the game does, but they're nowhere on par with Flash or Provoke. I've always looked at them as means to help you keep shadows up.

My last NIN EXP party, as the puller was arriving at the camp, I would head out a bit and throw Kurayami on them then Provoke. I would cast maybe 1 of the Elemental Ninjutsu a fight, purely to level the skill, and meleed away. If you're casting more than one a fight, that's 8 full seconds you're not swinging a Blade, which is your main source of keeping hate.

[Omni]

Originally Posted by Shadowneko

And yes I played Ninja but I hated it...3-4 shadows and no DEF(yes you can stack then but I still felt like I was dead man walking!)

You just haven't played enough ninja. Ichi tanking is nothing near what a nin can do. With some decent evasion gear mixed with str/atk. Utsusemi Ni + haste will allow you to perfectly tank most mobs when you grind. Yes, you still are wafer thin but it's a fair trade off if you can tank an xp mob losing little to no health at all.

yea, i think se did do the right thing to force the food market away from mithkabob/pie only. i mean back then, thats all any cook sold. now even though sushi is a very large market, melee still do mix things up with meat/sushi/curry/pasta. so all in all, it did us some good.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

I honestly don't think you have to use the dorado sushi or shuriken to tank like IfritnoItazura is suggesting.

Don't get me wrong, those are awesome tools to use. However I have partied with plenty of ninja tanks before sushi was ever implemented, and nobody wanted to use shuriken back then either, and those ninjas held hate just fine.

Have to? No. No right thinking party would be expecting a NIN to hold the mob solidly, especially not before Lv.40. But, doing the job better is enjoyable--and those are the right tools for doing the job better.

I respectfully disagree on "held hate just fine"; with 7 jobs at Lv40+, I have plenty of lowbie experience, including tanking on PLD and WAR/MNK. My tanking performance on NIN didn't come anywhere near my PLD or WAR/MNK. Even with Dorado Sushi and Shuriken, holding the mobs was a difficult task before Lv.40 for me, and I never seen other NIN's do much better.

Originally Posted by Vyuru

I'm just saying this because last I checked Dorado sushi and any kind of shuriken were hideously expensive even for ninja food/tools.

While Dorado sushi is 25k-27k a stack on Ifrit (used to be cheaper), the Noble Lady used as the main ingredient is only 12k a stack. If you don't have a friend with high level cooking, Squid Sushi +1 (40k/stack) is a reasonable alternative which gives AGI instead of Enmity+, and lasts twice as long.

Prices fluctuate a lot, though; two weeks ago I think I paid less than 25k for a stack of Squid Sushi +1, so it pays to visit AH often for price checks.

As for throwing weapon, I camped Tenshodo shops for cheaper Shuriken, but made my own when I can't get them cheap. Ended up selling unused Shuriken for profit... Later, I bugged high level smithing friends for Juji Shuriken.

Originally Posted by Vyuru

One thing I see some ninja tanks doing is casting an enfeeble as the puller brings in the mob, provoke, cast utsu when shadows are down and so on, I'm kind of wondering if that is a good thing to do in the lower levels before you get the Ni line of spells?

It's about right, though there isn't a single "most correct" routine, IMO.

Damage is great for enmity, and suriken is great for damage--but not reliable enough to count on at the start of the fight. This is what I ended up doing:

Pre-Lv.40:
Kurayami -> Provoke -> Utsusemi recast -> shuriken -> ... (Provoke/Utsusemi/shuriken/katana swings/other enfeebs)

Lv.40:
Kurayami -> Provoke -> Ni level elemental attack/enfeeb Ninjutsu "wheel" (and Utsusemi recast) -> Provoke -> shuriken -> ... (Provoke/Utsusemi/shuriken/katana swings/other enfeebs)

[Kittykunoichi]

Lvl 65 Ninja/Warrior Elvaan tactic as follows:
Paralyze and/or Slow skill before it reaches party.
If thf availible, other possible provoke'er does so, set up for SATA onto ninja tank (me). After SATA follow up with Provoke just to be safe.
Provoke every chance unless group wants to SATA again.
Elemental Ni Wheel and Enfeeb skills if you loose hate and Provoke is down.
IF you mess up on your Utsusemi, if it goes down too fast or you cast Ichi at a bad time, DONT PANIC, tell your party quickly "Utsu Down". I have a macro for that for emergencies.
Try not to cry when Blade: Jin does crap damage next to the wars, sams and rngs.
Happens to all guys, I'm sure.
--------------
I use Dorado Sushi for Enmity+. I use a chakram so I don't have to keep buying expensive bullets or shuriken. I keep several pieces of body armor and rings for different situations and I have macros for all. Such as "Rng Acc set", "Melee Dmg set" "Eva set". then again I'm a packrat so I gotta use all my crap once in awhile...

[Armando]

As for throwing weapon, I camped Tenshodo shops for cheaper Shuriken, but made my own when I can't get them cheap.

I used to camp Tenshodo shops too, but I always felt I never had enough of them XD Still, I really recommend doing this from time to time, they many not carry a lot of them, but they sure are a lot cheaper than at the AH. Back when I was levelling smithing, though, crafting Shurikens wasn't any cheaper than buying them and the AH unless you could HQ them. Don't know how it is now.

I believe it's 15 seconds of Resistance down, but I couldn't find a referential link.

That's correct. -30 Resistance for 15 secs. I posted a thread in the WAR forums a long-ass time ago, I could dig it up if you want.

Kittykunoichi, your avatar is awesome. Can I have the full pic?