[Kiyosuki]

You guys honestly want just one class to be able to tank? Just one?

Because Warrior's sure as hell won't be able to compete with Pld's as they are now after 60, and if Ninja's arn't tanks thats self explanatory. Regardless of anything, I think all of us need to ask ourselves that question.

As it is now Pld's and Nin's both go all out because of they're rivalry, to compete with eachother. If pld is the only tank in the entire game, what kind of Pld players do you think is going to suddenlly appear? If everyone is so desperate for a tank, how much power is that?

Some Brd's can be as gimpy and horrible as they want, and people will still invite them often just because they're the only one in the game that can use music. If this happens to a position as important as Tank, its not going to be a good thing at all. Thats another reason having more than one type of something in an area is a GOOD thing. It stops people from slouching off just because they're all anyone will be able to get. It wouldn't be good you guys.

I'm sure some Pld's will take pride in they're work still and go all out if this scenerio happened, but I can assure you this type of player will be a minority amongst Pld's. The same thing would happen if Nin's were the only tank in the game, thats why I consider myself to have a friendly rivalry with some Pld's. Its a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. It keeps us on edge.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by Kiyosuki
You guys honestly want just one class to be able to tank? Just one?

Because Warrior's sure as hell won't be able to compete with Pld's as they are now after 60, and if Ninja's arn't tanks thats self explanatory. Regardless of anything, I think all of us need to ask ourselves that question.

Actually, a Warrior fighting a mob with a 4+ second attack speed can normally out tank a PLD. And with elegy + slow, that happens with a lot of monsters.

Partying with a BRD is where the hard part comes in. Without a BRD and elegey, WARs get owned hard.

There's also the fact that most people that have WAR tanks, have WAR tanks that take the defensive while using Utsusemi as more of a back up tool. When I tank, I go full-out offensive and Utsusemi is my armor. In most instances that I have tanked, the mob has had a 5 second attack speed. With haste, Utsusemi's timer is down to 25 seconds. The mob will then wear the the 3 shadows in 15 seconds, so the warrior will get hit twice every 25 seconds after the first 30 seconds. And considering that post-66, fights don't last much longer then a minute and a half, a WAR won't get hit often at all. That also doesn't including paralyzes, parrys, evades, ect, but also doesn't including double attacks, special attacks, ect. And considering the DEF a WAR can get, the times they aren't hit aren't going to be a big deal (expecially if you have a good WHM to flash the mob, or a BLM|DRK to stun the mob)

[Kiyosuki]

Yes now they can do alright with the right circumstances. What I mean though, is the people who make it sound like Paladin is the only job thats right for tanking, or should be tanking. In a what if, lets say Ninja's are completely stripped of the ability to tank, and are DD's. That would also make War/Nin a whole lot less effective as a full blown tanker. Still a great SATA partner and Damage Dealer but as a full blown tank, if Ninja gets nerfed, War/Nin gets nerfed, and thus, Pld owns both in the tanking scene. I really don't want that to happen..for my above reason. I like Warrior tanks, they do it a different style than Ninja's and Paladin's, I hope SE gives them more abilities for tanking or late level use thats distinct from being a speedy tank or a defense tank.

Thats a what if. I left out the argument of "What if Warriors got something new to make them on par with Pld's?", because thats just as much in the air now as "What if Ninja's got something else too"

Pld's are a type of tank, doesn't mean I think they should be the only one. Just cause a guy wears a suit of armor doesn't mean they are the only ones eligable to tank ya know.

I just hate Monopolies.

This is all just a what if, of my idea of what I think would happen if Pld became the ONLY viable tank, especially 50+. We gotta wait for the answer....

Man, I wasn't really anxious for CoP, just mildly excited. But now with this, the days to CoP seem to be going slower now. I gotta know what happens!

[ZQM]

Yeah, this is really going to be a big blow on WAR/NINs as well, expecially since we won't have a Utsusemi:SAN series make up for it like Ninjas might.

[Cade]

I've never really looked into crafting them or however, so pardon my ignorance, but why do they cost so damn much? Are they really that hard to come by? I've seen ONE shuriken go for 6k. WTF??? 6k for one shot of good dmg that may or may not connect?

Steel ingots are used to make them, hence their expense.

I think most assume Nin are tanks and then build an argument from there; most of this is based on 1 real spell. 1. One. Uno. Ichi.

Sooooo Redmages shouldn't be considered Refreshers even though they get that one real spell?

...and actually the arguement is based on Ninja being tanks because THEY DO IT VERY WELL.

[Malleus]

That Nin tank well is purely subjective, dude. I would take a PLD over a Nin anyday. You, obviously, might not. Subjective. None of us is wrong or right, its our own preference based on our own interpretation. Subjective.

And, you're right, Rdm aren't refreshers. They're enfeeblers; that's right, b/c they only have 1 spell. What is a refresher, anyways? ^^

I don't want 1 tank, I'm just sharing my opinion that Nin aren't ONLY ABLE TO TANK. That's what the thread is about. But, it seems that, as previosly mentioned, some have trouble seeing that broad a picture.

B/c Nin can focus on other things doesn't mean you can't choose to 'tank'. It just means that Nin can do other things. Somehow, some blink 'tanks' take offense to the idea that a Nin can choose to focus on other things. Sad.

[Macht]

Really if you look at every job and look at their historic design, you kind of see that they have spent time trying to detail each one to their historic but still add some of a fantasy design to them.

With that said this non-sense of Sam and Nin hating eachother is a silly myth that came sometime much later. Both the Sam and Nin followed the code of the bushido as long as it applied. A Nin was not afraid to face a Sam in a one vs. one match like the code of bushido demands, but when becomes outnumbered they would use their concoction known as metsubushi "Sight removing".

The word Ninja comes from Shinobi-no-mono, it's two kanji characters could also be pronounced as Nin-Sha. Nin meaning "Concealed" and sha "Person". The Ninja's documented history details them as early creations of Spies, working like government branches similar to FBI, CIA, etc..

Now making an assesment of that information to put into game use. It sure does not depict a Ninja as a Tank, tank classes history usually depicts historic battles were they face large numbers of people. That is not true in a Ninjas case, their history seems to show them using concealed tactics.

The 3 basic uses that Ninjas had in history were Siege Warfare, Scouting, and of Assasxxxxtion. However in all the documented history of Ninja's actual and few assasxxxxtion attempt not one ever actually succeeded.

So really that only leaves Ninjas as Siege Warfare and Scouting. With Siege Warfare basically they just sneak into an area and cause mayham and chaos while the main army storms in (Usually the tactic done was disguising as part of the enemy rank and making it seem like a rebellion in the ranks). The opposite was true as well, of an invading army the ninja would sneak into their camps and apply scare tactics (Steal their banner and hang in the the battlements in the morning).

So basically what a ninja was truely known for is their ability to demoralize and distract. Now appling that to game use that does seem to fit the bill of what they are trying to get Ninja being used for a distraction and for demoralize would be debuffing.

In a party with a WAR since the WAR doesn't have as much defensive abilities as a PLD but they do come fairly close having a member that can divert the damage for part of the fight would help them out a good amount. So a Ninja acting as decoy for part of the battle seems to fit that perfectly.

I don't think this was to discourage use of blink tanking, I do think it was to add more realistic elements so that the games ninja are following suit the historic ninjas.

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Macht
Really if you look at every job and look at their historic design, you kind of see that they have spent time trying to detail each one to their historic but still add some of a fantasy design to them.

With that said this non-sense of Sam and Nin hating eachother is a silly myth that came sometime much later. Both the Sam and Nin followed the code of the bushido as long as it applied. A Nin was not afraid to face a Sam in a one vs. one match like the code of bushido demands, but when becomes outnumbered they would use their concoction known as metsubushi "Sight removing".

The word Ninja comes from Shinobi-no-mono, it's two kanji characters could also be pronounced as Nin-Sha. Nin meaning "Concealed" and sha "Person". The Ninja's documented history details them as early creations of Spies, working like government branches similar to FBI, CIA, etc..

Now making an assesment of that information to put into game use. It sure does not depict a Ninja as a Tank, tank classes history usually depicts historic battles were they face large numbers of people. That is not true in a Ninjas case, their history seems to show them using concealed tactics.

The 3 basic uses that Ninjas had in history were Siege Warfare, Scouting, and of Assasxxxxtion. However in all the documented history of Ninja's actual and few assasxxxxtion attempt not one ever actually succeeded.

So really that only leaves Ninjas as Siege Warfare and Scouting. With Siege Warfare basically they just sneak into an area and cause mayham and chaos while the main army storms in (Usually the tactic done was disguising as part of the enemy rank and making it seem like a rebellion in the ranks). The opposite was true as well, of an invading army the ninja would sneak into their camps and apply scare tactics (Steal their banner and hang in the the battlements in the morning).

So basically what a ninja was truely known for is their ability to demoralize and distract. Now appling that to game use that does seem to fit the bill of what they are trying to get Ninja being used for a distraction and for demoralize would be debuffing.

In a party with a WAR since the WAR doesn't have as much defensive abilities as a PLD but they do come fairly close having a member that can divert the damage for part of the fight would help them out a good amount. So a Ninja acting as decoy for part of the battle seems to fit that perfectly.

I don't think this was to discourage use of blink tanking, I do think it was to add more realistic elements so that the games ninja are following suit the historic ninjas.

Wow, way to google some lame ill researched vox pop "way of the ninja".

[csBahamut]

If I remember correctly, wasn't PLD/WAR and WAR/MNK the two main tanking jobs before NINs proved their worth? If WARs could tank before, what prevents them from still being able to now? When leveling up my WAR to 37, I was always the tank as WAR/MNK. My brother plays WAR/MNK as his secondary job. Most of the time he ends up tanking. Same with another person in my LS who's a WAR/NIN. We haven't gotten past the 50+/60+ level range yet, but I'm pretty sure both would be still viable for most exp parties. HNMs on the other hand, those require specialized tanks like PLD and NIN.

Even though I dislike NINs, I have to agree with Kiyosuki. It's a friendly competative relationship. From a PLD's view point, all I see is people saying that NIN tanks are the best and are needed to tank everything that's hard(like HNMs and hard NMs), and you HAVE to have a NIN tank to get good exp/hr. Hearing people claim getting 8K+ exp/hr because the NIN doesn't take damage like a PLD sure does make the NIN blink a little too powerful. I really don't want to see NINs take over the tanking 'market' either. I'd love to see PLD, NIN, and WAR all be able to tank. Heck, I'd love to see a viable MNK tank as well(improvement of the counter-tank method).

As long as NINs have to take a few regular attacks, and not be completely unhittable in battle, like some kind of invincible god. Maybe a 'roll with the blow' type of ability that could be activated to reduce damage taken for brief periods of time, or an increase evasion ability. Being able to go unhurt an entire battle is just too much in my opinion. SE will balance it all out, I hope.

Man, I wasn't really anxious for CoP, just mildly excited. But now with this, the days to CoP seem to be going slower now. I gotta know what happens!

I know what you mean. I can't wait to see what changes/fixes they make to the jobs. Being able to cast raise at evel 50 again, and a 3 min cooldown timer on cover are minor things to me. The Utsusemi change, the SMN upgrades, and the Wheeling Thrust upgrade really make me happy, and want to know what other juicy changes SE has made to balance the game.

[Cade]

B/c Nin can focus on other things doesn't mean you can't choose to 'tank'. It just means that Nin can do other things. Somehow, some blink 'tanks' take offense to the idea that a Nin can choose to focus on other things. Sad.

Its been stated before, Ninja can be a decent damage dealer post lv. 40, but it will be more expensive than blink-tanking. Not to mention you'd have to deal with all the other DDs for party spots... s'not worth it.

Nobody complains about Paladins being ONLY able to tank. Whats annoying is people who come here and say "I don't want ninja to be a tank, they're too cool for that. It doesn't fit my view of what a ninja is suppose to be! This isn't how ninjas were in previous FFs!" etc etc.

You're right. Its sad people can't broaden their perspectives.

[Macht]

Originally posted by Gryff
Wow, way to google some lame ill researched vox pop "way of the ninja".

Well what reasoning or any attempts have you made other then to attack an idea. I'm really getting sick of seeing single sentence remarks without even a must as a single shread of attempting to disprove or correct. It's extreemly annoying to see such a lack of intellegence or not even an attempt at intellegence to be attacking every from of constructive idea put up.

[csBahamut]

You might as well ignore those types of posters Macht. They have nothing better to do that to try and get into fights.

Back to the NIN Utsusemi nerf...

This thread in the PLD forums expresses some of the major concerns that PLD have with blink-tanking, HNMs.

The real issue is that as it stands right now, PLDs simply take way too much dmg. TOO MUCH DMG. I dont care how many PLDs you have because the damage is still going to some tank. That means that you need whm's with Rdms & Brds dumping MP at crazy rates. You take 1 WAR/NIN and all these requirements get bundled up into an inventory item called Shehei. The fact that you can take an inventory item and simply replace extra healers and refreshers (RDMS and/or BRDS) simply proves the inequality of PLD/WAR vs WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR tank.

Abriael, I think when you have experienced a battle vs Genbu with a PLD tank and then seen the amazing ease with a WAR/NIN or NIN/WAR tank, you will understand why many high level PLDs feel frustrated. Perhaps Genbu is an extreme example that puts the WAR/NIN and NIN/WAR in good light but this transcends everyting, even simple leveling.

I think that is what bothers most PLDs about NIN the most.

[Malleus]

So much for keeping it civil..^^.

Seriously, this is a thread about whether or not Nin can do something OTHER than tank. NOT a thread about whether or not Nin tanks blow. No one, not me anyways, said they blow.

NOR are we saying that being dd Nin will be cheap; this too is irrelavant to the argument at hand. If we are talking about how inexpensive a job is, then Nin would be horrid tanks simply b/c per gil, Pld make WAY better tanks. Yet, this isn't about that.

I am simply saying that, Yes, Nin can be dds; herego my vote of Yes.

Simple.

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Macht
Well what reasoning or any attempts have you made other then to attack an idea. I'm really getting sick of seeing single sentence remarks without even a must as a single shread of attempting to disprove or correct. It's extreemly annoying to see such a lack of intellegence or not even an attempt at intellegence to be attacking every from of constructive idea put up.

Sorry but you basically copied and pasted the contents of

http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/ci...res/ninja.html

Thats what I was referring to.

You can find information supporting many "purposes" of ninjas, whatever you want to fit your own concepts in fact.

[little ninja]

macht you are correct in alot fo what you have said about the ninja. and its sad to see soemone come in an do a lame ass one rip sentence..

the ninja was a master of invisiblity. thus why tonka fits in with play still. but why not make a attack like s.a/t.a while using it.. while thf has the hide ability. ninja an what a ninja stands for is not taken into play.. also this can be said for blink tanking. the ninja were well known to confuse a sam in the feild of battle. awkward stances, holding the angle of the blade in such a way that the sam thaught it to be a regular sam katana.. thus the sams first attack would miss, causing the ninja to be able to strike fast an deadly.


ninja were also very deadly with the shuriken. thus why they get an A+ in throwing. but i yet to see S.E take that into consideration. there is no thwoing weapon skill, otherwise rng would lose there job spots to a ninja.


this part is not to disrepect any pld, an this is not all pld. just some that i have encountered.. but most are just pricks. alot of them became pld. so they can get to endgame fast, an nothing else. they have no cost per lvl of play. they get the refreshs with the mages, while drks always got jack crap. the only food they consume is fishkabobs, an when they rn out of mp. its ok for them to heal. but jobs like drk have to stand there an save tp.. pld are the little brother of the pt's. dont upset them or they leave. they die you have to sit there for the rest of the pt hearing how they died, an would have been with this much exp..


i like many others dont know what S.E will do with the ninja. but the ninja is incomplete like the drgs are. yet S.E still targets on pld. an trust me, we all know there is little wrong with the job.
will they give us a san line of spells? will we see throwing weapon skills, new job traits or abilities.. who knows ??